Temperature Going Nuts Again

[Blaze]

It’s currently 50F.
It’s Raining.
No Clothing.
Final Destination

Warmth on all body parts is 51.

Experimental Version 2218

[KA101]

[quote=“Blaze, post:1, topic:7560”]It’s currently 50F.
It’s Raining.
No Clothing.
Final Destination

Warmth on all body parts is 51.

Experimental Version 2218[/quote]

Battlefield is a much better stage anyway. KA101 was never much good at the event matches, but went the distance using Bowser in All-Star mode.

Being significantly warmer than comfortable (that’s what the 51 means) at 50F and naked in the rain seems weird, yeah. I take it you’re not Ursine Fur or some similar mutation.

Thanks for reporting.

[Sean_Mirrsen]

I’m starting to suspect there’s been some sort of Fahrenheit/Celsius(/Kelvin?) mix-up in the windchill pr. Too many odd errors.

[Robik]

2nd day of spring
Lightning storm
Raincoat on
Wet morale -3
Inside building +3 °C
Outside building -19 °C

Bit crazy

[i2amroy]

Yeah seems like wind chill is still a little strong. To get a wind chill factor difference that large you’d need something like winds of 1250 mph.

[Coolthulhu]

Also, the opposite can happen too:
My survivor is standing naked in the middle of a summer night (13 degree Celsius/55 Fahrenheit) with 50 (warm) on every bodypart. No relevant mutations either.
Going into an underground lab (14 Celsius) doesn’t change anything.

[Shoes]

Humidity is set to 100% when it’s raining outdoors, but not indoors, so that could be one common cause for weirdness in both situations mentioned.

I really have to add a debug item that lists air temp, pressure and humidity ;p

Do these crazy readings ever happen when it’s not raining?

[Coolthulhu]

Do these crazy readings ever happen when it’s not raining?

Back to “Cloudy” and it’s still wonky.
Was wonky while deep in underground lab too.

[Shoes]

Hm, underground there is 0 wind, so it would only be humidity. I will take a closer look at this this weekend if I have time. Things I will specifically look at:

• Underground vs above ground temperature
• Indoor vs outdoor temperature
• Low humidity vs high humidity temperature

I am pretty confident that unit conversion is not the issue, but I could have been working with small enough units where the difference was negligible. I will also think about adding a debug item that reads accurate temperature/pressure(windpower)/humidity.

[Samscale1]

It would be nice if the windchill was nerfed quite a bit, and also took into account body heat via movement. I can be cycling and suddenly drop to freezing because I’m rapidly travelling through cold air, but being someone who cycles regularly, I know that this would not be how temperature would work. Initially you would get the temperature drop, but as time went on you would heat up as your body generates heat. I can go out in a shirt and jeans on a bike in winter and come back boiling hot. Also as it stands, doing anything except standing next to a fire gives you a negative morale level due to the player being chilly. It would be nice if either the morale was removed for being chilly as this would make it more manageable. It also makes the heat dependant trait totally unplayable as you end up suffering massively because you can never get warm without jumping to a fire.

I can’t give specifics, I haven’t really played since windchill was merged because I find it unplayable, It would be nice if the figures were tweaked a little so they player doesn’t get quite as cold or so that clothes provide more warmth. I would prefer to have the player being comfortable with neutral morale, rather than chilly with a negative morale.

I understand that it might be more playable in the late game, but I can’t get to the late game because I end up getting too many warning messages from being cold.

Another idea is to have windchill be an option in the mods menu so you can have it on for a player vs environment type game, or for an extra challenge in normal game, but don’t force players into using it

Sorry if this sounds like a huge whiney complaint, to be fair it probably is. It’s just not a feature that I am a fan of

[Coolthulhu]

Also as it stands, doing anything except standing next to a fire gives you a negative morale level due to the player being chilly

I think that one was fixed - if you get few layers of hot clothing, you’ll feel warm in the middle of winter. A blanket was enough for me in the middle of 20 day winter, for example.

There’s a second, harder to fix issue: you can feel “Very hot!” during summer night deep underground while naked with temperature meter showing 13 degrees Celsius (~55 Fahrenheit). This makes it actually impossible to craft due to constant “You’re hurt! Stop?”.

While I like the idea of temperature depending on wind and humidity, it’s not a playable feature yet, so there should be an off switch - a simple “if” branching into new behavior and old behavior would be enough.

[Shoes]

There are 2 different models for windchill on wikipedia, and they don’t quite give the same windchill factors.

In my winter start, I am faced with 26F (real temp, not felt), 60mph winds and 67% humidity. In the robust model, that feels like -13F, a 40 degree drop! However, the math is correct (the chart I am looking at doesn’t go up to 60mph winds, but when I lower it to 50mph, I am bang on with what the chart reads).

The less robust model says I would only feel 4.4F in those same conditions, that’s a 20 degree drop. That’s a huge difference. This model is less robust because it doesn’t take into account humidity, and only works for conditions below 50F.

Another example, in less extreme conditions (35F, 10mph winds, 70% humidity), the models differ by feeling 25.0F and 27.4F respectively.

So the huge swings in temperature are true to the model.

After all that being said, here is what I think I will do. Because of what is said here : http://www.ec.gc.ca/meteo-weather/default.asp?lang=n&n=5FBF816A-1#wc6, it seems like the “less robust” model is being used as a standard, so I will use that for windchill. However, at temps high than 50F, I will use the “robust” model, as humidity plays a bigger role in warmer temperatures.

Also to note, I did an extreme data test of -40F in 40mph in winds, and the “less robust” model is like 20 degrees colder. In conclusion, the two models are different in a way that I can’t put into words!

[Samscale1]

It would still be nice to have windchill as an option/mod rather than a forced thing in every world. I do like the idea of it, it just doesn’t fit with the style I like to play, like is said perhaps in combination with the no monsters mod it would be cool, but having to worry about temperature as well as food and water and monsters is far to much to worry about in a single game I find.

[Coolthulhu]

Properly working windchill probably won’t be deadly like it is now.
From what I can tell, the original intent was mostly so that you seek proper shelter in the cold/hot weather instead of just tanking it and wearing a heavy plating made of kevlar in the scorching sun.

While an off switch would be cool, it shouldn’t be per-world setting, just a temporary switch to ensure no one is forced to deal with unbearable conditions when they happen. It could also help with debugging by showing inconsistent behaviors. Windchill is the future. Think cool - think Windchill.

[Robik]

I think that felt temp is partly bullshit though.

Real vs. felt

1. Wind cannot get you colder or warmer than it is temperature of air itself, no matter how fast it is. It just cools you / warms you faster.
2. This effect works on naked skin, but I doubt it’s full effect work thru several layers of clothing, especially if it is clothing like raining coat or other non-breathable materials.

[kevin.granade]

First thing, making a core game mechanic like this optional is simply not happening. Either we get it working right and it’s always on, (and we are listening to your feedback), or we can’t get it working right and it gets turned off entirely. As with many other things that have come up, it’s impossible to balance things both ways, trying would only make things worse.

It would be nice if the windchill was nerfed quite a bit, and also took into account body heat via movement.

We’d love to add this, but it’s a really huge chunk of work to add it, so it’s not going to happen fast.

[quote=“Robik, post:15, topic:7560”]I think that felt temp is partly bullshit though.

Real vs. felt

1. Wind cannot get you colder or warmer than it is temperature of air itself, no matter how fast it is. It just cools you / warms you faster.[/quote]
   While that statement is true, it’s also pointless, since in most cases if you reach ambient air temperature, you’re dead.
   Your core body temperature is always above 90F, so if ambient temperature is significantly below that (and I believe we’re talking about temperatures in the 20F-40F range here, the default game start conditions, so it is), you’re steadily losing body heat. Having wind accelerate that has very bad effects on your ability to maintain your temperature, because your body has a pretty limited ability to produce heat faster.
   You might say something about frostbite, but AFAIK that has been fixed, you simply can’t get frostbite in above-freezing temperatures.

2) This effect works on naked skin, but I doubt it’s full effect work thru several layers of clothing, especially if it is clothing like raining coat or other non-breathable materials.

That’s a really good point, if we’re applying windchill without then negating it for layered clothing, that’s a problem. Will look into that.

[Robik]

You might say something about frostbite, but AFAIK that has been fixed, you simply can’t get frostbite in above-freezing temperatures.

Cool it is fixed. You can’t tell the difference though, if it is freezy or windy. Becouse UI shows only fake temperature which might be result of both. I posted suggestion in https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/9593 how to remedy this, but here’s the copy:

I would prefer, if instead of showing felt temperature, UI showed real temperature, wind speed and humidity estimates (based on survival?) and having weather gadget to show precise values. Similar to like time and watches works.

[Valpo]

coolsyou down faster as in feels colder is a good aproximation to what happens. codler air will sap energyfrom you faster which is why -15 degree w/o wind feel like -5 with some wind as it cools you down at the same speed. of course your ody tempreture wont fall under -5 degrees inthis instance however if it falls that deep your dead anyway. anything below yourbody tempreture will feel “cold” if it saps energie from your body faster then it can replenish it to the part exposed to that drain. So technicly 30 °c can feel cold(though the needed air movement for this would probbably result in energyproduction through friction which warms you up again /faszinating … someone wanna do numbers? xD).

[bahihs]

Uh…outside car: 33F

Inside car (missing windshield) moving at a whooping 9mph:….-545F!

What is going on?

[FunsizeNinja123]

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