The role of clothing - a discussion

[Shoes]

In https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/10679, I posted the following. Discuss!

So, I found these interesting articles:

• http://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/zba6/p144967.pdf
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_comfort#Factors_influencing_thermal_comfort
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_insulation

I have been meaning to ensure that our clothing warmth system accurately reflects reality. In reality, what happens is that you have 3 layers of clothing; (1) an inside layer that absorbs sweat. (2) an outer layer that protects from wind. (3) a layer between the last two that allows you to build up warm air. If you’re missing layer 1, you’re sweating. If you’re missing layer 2, you’re touching your outer layer which is cold. If you’re missing layer 3, you’re unable to build up warmth.

Our system isn’t bad; clothing that is made from plastic/leather/etc blocks wind very well; it’s our (2), however there is no penalty for wearing an outer layer with no middle layer. Anything made from cotton/wool would then be our (3), but needs to be nerfed hard. At the moment, you could wear three layers of cotton and block as much wind as a wind breaker. We don’t have a (1) layer.

So changes I propose are the following.

• Nerf cotton/wool wind resistance hard. (easy)
• Nerf warmth values of certain “wind breaker” items (some items, like a winter coat or other down filled items, work as their own (2) and (3) layers. (easy)
• Create a need for a (1) layer. (???)

That last point is where a discussion needs to take place. Here are my thoughts on the (1) layer:

• This is an opportunity to create a hygiene system; your inner clothing can get dirty and create scent and morale problems.
• Body wetness is already tracked per body part, this might be able to be used to track sweat… and it already affects body warmth in regards to wind. Code could be added to increase rate of heat exchange due to being wet.

I feel like there’s potential here, but I feel like my two ideas might sacrifice fun in the name of reality.

I would love to hear your thoughts!

[Wally-kun]

This would definitely change how we dress ourselves in game.

The layers you say we need exist already, as far as I know. You’ve got ‘skin-tight’, ‘normal’, ‘outer’, and ‘strapped’. All that’s really needed is to adjust the values of clothes and weave it into that hygiene thing once it comes around someday.

Just seems like a stats-tweaking thing to me. I do agree it’d add a lot to realism, but there’s also a consideration of how much fun it’d be trying to manage.

[Coolthulhu]

I’m for nerfing cotton. Not so sure about wool - wool items are already a very minor part of the game. The only wool item that can’t be easily replaced with a better cotton one is socks.

Some small morale boost for good hygiene could be cool. Bad hygiene causing scent problems sounds OK, but morale problems sound like a hassle.

[Shoes]

I do agree it’d add a lot to realism, but there’s also a consideration of how much fun it’d be trying to manage.

That’s my primary concern.

I’m for nerfing cotton. Not so sure about wool - wool items are already a very minor part of the game. The only wool item that can’t be easily replaced with a better cotton one is socks.

The nerf would only be related to wind resistance, not warmth. Wearing wool + wind breaker would still provide plenty of warmth.

[Wally-kun]

[quote=“Wally-kun, post:2, topic:8470”]I do agree it’d add a lot to realism, but there’s also a consideration of how much fun it’d be trying to manage.

That’s my primary concern.

I’m for nerfing cotton. Not so sure about wool - wool items are already a very minor part of the game. The only wool item that can’t be easily replaced with a better cotton one is socks.

The nerf would only be related to wind resistance, not warmth. Wearing wool + wind breaker would still provide plenty of warmth.[/quote]

Oh, so wind blowing would still tank your warmth right and proper.

It feels like a lot of this thread is already in existence, it just needs to be organized a little more and have some numbers tweaked. Good suggestion though.

[kevin.granade]

I’m not eager to dive into hygeine right now, but moisture management is a really big deal when being active in harsh environments.
A basic outline of how I think it would work:
You produce sweat when active, which increases skin moisture level. (as a placeholder it could be all the time)
Your clothing layers absorb moisture from your skin and each other (when adjacent).
Layers of clothing exposed to wind will release moisture to the air.
If skin moisture builds up too much, it’s uncomfortable. (morale penalty)
The insulation (warmth) of most clothing is hampered by moisture. (wool and some synthetics will have a flag that prevents this)

[Hardluck]

There is nothing that prevents cotton or wool from serving as material for a wind breaker. Same goes for plastic as a source of warm clothing. Pigeonholing them, as able serve only as one or the other, ignores the fact that they are actually categories, not unique materials.

Also, you only sweat when your body temperature rises too high (or you are sick), sweating wouldn’t be an issue until your body temperature rises well above comfortable. Getting otherwise wet, however, is a big issue. Being soaking wet from the rain, other than during summer, should give you a lot of weight, be really encumbering, cause you to lose nutrition (evaporation lowers body temp, needs to be raised with metabolism) and to severely lower your resistance diseases.

[Shoes]

There is nothing that prevents cotton or wool from serving as material for a wind breaker. Same goes for plastic as a source of warm clothing. Pigeonholing them, as able serve only as one or the other, ignores the fact that they are actually categories, not unique materials.

I will take a look at the clothing categories and see how accurate they are in regards to wind resistance and make changes if necessary, but at the moment that’s how the game works.

Also, you only sweat when your body temperature rises too high (or you are sick), sweating wouldn’t be an issue until your body temperature rises well above comfortable.

I briefly read wikipedia, and it sounded like one would perspire when the skin is warm or when the core is warm (also emotional stress …). Stress regulates body temp, so any time the player is comfortable it could be argued that he is sweating to remain comfortable. It becoming an issue or not could depend on what the player is wearing to absorb the sweat.

A basic outline of how I think it would work:

I agree with that outline. I will think about exactly how that will translate the lines of code.

[Muaddib]

Might as well add in blood circulation.

If you’re running/riding a bike, and you’re wearing proper winter clothes, but I dunno, thin pants, your legs will still be warm. Because your blood can just warm up in your torso, cool down in your legs, and warm up in your torso again.

I used to ride my bike for 4 hours a day, and usually, I’d ride around with my jacket wide open except for rainy/snowy weather.

[Shoes]

[quote=“Muaddib, post:9, topic:8470”]Might as well add in blood circulation.

If you’re running/riding a bike, and you’re wearing proper winter clothes, but I dunno, thin pants, your legs will still be warm. Because your blood can just warm up in your torso, cool down in your legs, and warm up in your torso again.

I used to ride my bike for 4 hours a day, and usually, I’d ride around with my jacket wide open except for rainy/snowy weather.[/quote]

Technically that’s already in the game, but it as a very small impact. I will have to revisit it now that there’s a bit more detail to the body temperature system, but to properly do this there should be a split between skin temperature and core temperature, allowing you to “stay warm” while biking in the cold, but still suffer cold injuries because you’re ill equipped.

edit: In the github link, I posted my thoughts on how the system would play out. Clothing would have a capacity of wetness, and the percentage of how wet it is will be the penalty. Wool could have a capacity of 10, cotton a capacity of 2. So when wool is 5/10 wet, it’s as bad as cotton being 1/2 wet. I would then expand the body temp system to take into account the player being wet, because at the moment only windchill does that. Dampness would also try and spread, so that all clothing would get 10% wet before moving to 20% wet. I would probably also have to look at layers, so that there’s a difference between damp clothing touching the skin and damp clothing not touching the skin.

[Pthalocy]

My biggest problem with winter irl is the fact I get sweaty.
Summer? No big deal, my skin is exposed so I dry off quickly. Unless I’m wearing too much clothing, in which case I’m basically swimming in soggy outfit (super not fun, morale penalty appropriate).
Winter? I really can’t afford to take those damp layers off or my body temp plummets and my hands turn off and go numb in a flash. So I get to endure that morale penalty, eeech.

conclusion? Clothing layering to deal with clothes wetness: Good.

Clothing layering for hygiene: Nah. Though I will admit I feel pretty ‘unclean’ when damp like that, we already have the solution of the Towel item in-game. I don’t think anything further is needed in that regard.

[kevin.granade]

Also, you only sweat when your body temperature rises too high (or you are sick), sweating wouldn’t be an issue until your body temperature rises well above comfortable.

I think you mean ‘you only accumulate sweat on your skin when…’. we sweat pretty much constantly, but for the most part it evaporates directly off our skin and isn’t noticeable. under normal circumstances this vapor will just make its way through your clothes and dissipate, but if you’re wearing impermiable clothes or sweating a lot, it can build up.

[Hardluck]

[quote=“Hardluck, post:7, topic:8470”]There is nothing that prevents cotton or wool from serving as material for a wind breaker. Same goes for plastic as a source of warm clothing. Pigeonholing them, as able serve only as one or the other, ignores the fact that they are actually categories, not unique materials.

I will take a look at the clothing categories and see how accurate they are in regards to wind resistance and make changes if necessary, but at the moment that’s how the game works.[/quote]
I’m getting a feeling that we are not understanding each other completely. What I meant in game all things made of cotton are listed as cotton and their warmth/wind breaking ability is one how the actual fabric used is expressed. Same thing goes for wool. If you go and categorically set, for example, cotton as having certain values of these, you are saying that terrycloth, denim, cambric and crochet all have the same values. While this is an acceptable simplification for a game, it no longer accurately reflects reality.

[quote=“Hardluck, post:7, topic:8470”]Also, you only sweat when your body temperature rises too high (or you are sick), sweating wouldn’t be an issue until your body temperature rises well above comfortable.

I briefly read wikipedia, and it sounded like one would perspire when the skin is warm or when the core is warm (also emotional stress …). Stress regulates body temp, so any time the player is comfortable it could be argued that he is sweating to remain comfortable. It becoming an issue or not could depend on what the player is wearing to absorb the sweat.[/quote]

I think you mean ‘you only accumulate sweat on your skin when…’. we sweat pretty much constantly, but for the most part it evaporates directly off our skin and isn’t noticeable. under normal circumstances this vapor will just make its way through your clothes and dissipate, but if you’re wearing impermiable clothes or sweating a lot, it can build up.

While humans do constantly evaporate moisture through skin exposed to a medium able to contain it, sweating is a triggered response. Clothing that effectively creates a barrier of air around also prevents sweat from having a medium to evaporate to (the air trapped near the skin quickly saturates). Most clothing absorbs the excess sweat, a layer next to the skin would slow down how fast your other clothes get soaked, but it will make you sweat more. What you would want next to your skin is an advanced fabric, able to transfer the water vapor away from your skin, without getting soaking wet in the process.

[MormonPartyboat]

I’m getting a feeling that we are not understanding each other completely. What I meant in game all things made of cotton are listed as cotton and their warmth/wind breaking ability is one how the actual fabric used is expressed. Same thing goes for wool. If you go and categorically set, for example, cotton as having certain values of these, you are saying that terrycloth, denim, cambric and crochet all have the same values. While this is an acceptable simplification for a game, it no longer accurately reflects reality.

That strikes me as more of an issue with lumping all of those into ‘cotton’. I think it would be nice to have a generic material type like ‘cloth’, with specific materials of that type assigned a ruggedness/warmth/wind breaking ability. Then the recipe would generally require so much material of any material type, and determine the stats of the final item based on what material the player puts in (lace shirt vs cotton shirt vs denim shirt).

[Hardluck]

[spoiler][quote=“Hardluck, post:13, topic:8470”]I’m getting a feeling that we are not understanding each other completely. What I meant in game all things made of cotton are listed as cotton and their warmth/wind breaking ability is one how the actual fabric used is expressed. Same thing goes for wool. If you go and categorically set, for example, cotton as having certain values of these, you are saying that terrycloth, denim, cambric and crochet all have the same values. While this is an acceptable simplification for a game, it no longer accurately reflects reality.

That strikes me as more of an issue with lumping all of those into ‘cotton’. I think it would be nice to have a generic material type like ‘cloth’, with specific materials of that type assigned a ruggedness/warmth/wind breaking ability. Then the recipe would generally require so much material of any material type, and determine the stats of the final item based on what material the player puts in (lace shirt vs cotton shirt vs denim shirt).[/quote]

It definitely is an issue with lumping them all in the same material. Not that describing it as an “issue” means that it’s something that must me changed.

[Shoes]

That strikes me as more of an issue with lumping all of those into ‘cotton’. I think it would be nice to have a generic material type like ‘cloth’, with specific materials of that type assigned a ruggedness/warmth/wind breaking ability. Then the recipe would generally require so much material of any material type, and determine the stats of the final item based on what material the player puts in (lace shirt vs cotton shirt vs denim shirt).

Oh man, that would be so cool.

As for perspiration and all that jazz, it’s still new territory for me. I wouldn’t want to write code that reflect my understanding of perspiration, I would rather right code that reflects perspiration. Maybe I’ll start slow and track wetness for clothing. After that, the fun can begin…