Game too easy, armor too good?

[IcedPee]

Thank you, based Rivet.

[greenpanda]

With armor values halved I took out a 800+ points horde wearing:
leather jacket of protection 12
raincoat of protection 7
chest rig of protection 4
wielding a knife spear with high melee.
I managed to get a few scratches. Shock zombies, I shot them in the dark.

But I nearly killed myself disarming a shotgun trap.

[kalad2]

I could see some serious reduction to the defensive capabilities of not-proper-armor clothes and the like, but by the time you get to making genuinely /good/ armor, it should be pretty dang protective, otherwise so much investment for so little gain. Also, Turrets have the issue, for me, of being instant death sentences if I’m not armored enough, but being inconsequential once I get good enough armor.

I would posit this to mostly being due to their burst nature, if you /can/ take damage from them, they’ll probably deal enough to kill or severely wound you, if you can’t take damage from them, they aren’t a problem. I’d say make individual shots from turrets slightly nastier, but cut back on their bullet spam

[latogato]

With armor values halved I took out a 800+ points horde wearing:

It is because the “used protection values” was changed in each version. You always saw the full “protection values”, but

• in 0.8 the game used only the 1/6 of the protection values against damages.
• in 0.9 they change it to 1/3
• in 0.A the code was changed and it used the full protection values.

Now they halved the “protection values”, so you can see the effective values on the screen.

If you was able to take out 800+ zombies then it is still too overpowered.

I’m sure if they get enough feedback, they will change it again.

[Kyriolexical_Dino]

Welp, got the new experimental and this SURELY changed things, almost got shot down by one of the new sniper turrets even while wearing the Rivtech power armour, it was reinforced and powered on too if that helps. So far the damage in relation to guns seems to have been boosted quite a lot and I kinda like it that way, gives it more of an incentive to use Heavy power armour if you really don’t wanna get hurt.

[KA101]

[quote=“greenpanda, post:42, topic:6147”]With armor values halved I took out a 800+ points horde wearing:
leather jacket of protection 12
raincoat of protection 7
chest rig of protection 4
wielding a knife spear with high melee.
I managed to get a few scratches. Shock zombies, I shot them in the dark.

But I nearly killed myself disarming a shotgun trap.[/quote]

If my experience with hordes is any indication, that’s a running battle against 5-20 zeds at a time, not 800 at once. Mobility and terrain can be factors, and I’m presuming that we’re not talking 4-5 zed attacks to one of yours.

And a point-blank shotgun blast, such as those from a trap, should be pretty dangerous.

[hr]
Edited to add:

Welp, got the new experimental and this SURELY changed things, almost got shot down by one of the new sniper turrets even while wearing the Rivtech power armour, it was reinforced and powered on too if that helps. So far the damage in relation to guns seems to have been boosted quite a lot and I kinda like it that way, gives it more of an incentive to use Heavy power armour if you really don’t wanna get hurt.

That’s an M4 being used at effective range. You want Leadworks LLC to come out with an automated Barrett?

[Kyriolexical_Dino]

^^ Oh god please yes! That surely would be FUN.

[greenpanda]

[quote=“KA101, post:46, topic:6147”][quote=“greenpanda, post:42, topic:6147”]With armor values halved I took out a 800+ points horde wearing:
leather jacket of protection 12
raincoat of protection 7
chest rig of protection 4
wielding a knife spear with high melee.
I managed to get a few scratches. Shock zombies, I shot them in the dark.

But I nearly killed myself disarming a shotgun trap.[/quote]

If my experience with hordes is any indication, that’s a running battle against 5-20 zeds at a time, not 800 at once. Mobility and terrain can be factors, and I’m presuming that we’re not talking 4-5 zed attacks to one of yours.

And a point-blank shotgun blast, such as those from a trap, should be pretty dangerous.[/quote]
I don’t get the point of your post.
Are you saying the halved armor value is balanced as I’m not fighting 800 zombies at once?
Obviously I’m and most people not going to let myself get surrounded all the time but I do get lots of hits that could not penetrate my armor.
As it is, I can walk into town and clear out hundreds of zombies just wearing leather clothing and a knife spear since they can’t get pass my weak armor.
I don’t think 800 are the number of zombies (but rather points as my post pointed out) since I clear hordes with usually less than their numbers (I’ve clear more than 4 hordes).

The point is even for halved armor values:

1. Zombies are not dangerous as my leather armor clothing prevented most of the damage.
2. I’m not saying that the trap is too dangerous but rather zombie hordes are weak comparatively to shotgun traps.

Melee for the char might be too good as well.
My dodge is 2 while melee is 10 btw, I get non-block hits very often as I have negative encumbrance.

Re: armor in previous versions:
The previous version I played was around Feb 2013, not sure what version or armor does then.

[KA101]

OK, just ran a quick test on the current dev build. 4 standard zeds in the evac shelter. Test char (Play Now!) was a Groom with Slow Runner and Parkour Expert; I stripped him prior to the test.

Wearing/wielding non-fitted gear you described, skill 0, the raincoat was destroyed and I lost about one | of health on all body parts. Legs took a little more, one arm got dinged for \ and one arm came through OK.

Got a replacement raincoat, layered over the jacket as before. Healed the char back to full health, roughly 6 pain left. Increased Melee to 8, Dodging leveled to 1 during the course of this test, as had piercing in the test before. Raincoat destroyed, two Deep wounds (head and left leg), Head down two bars, Torso and R leg down one, L leg down 1.5, and the arms made it through unscathed.

Healed up, fitted all the gear. 4 zeds later, head’s down two notches again, and each leg is down a notch with a Deep Wound to boot. Torso’s OK.

All in all, this character would be in nontrivial trouble after the last test (that’s two clean/cauterizes there), and that’s after 4 zeds. Though you may have had gear or skills not mentioned (pants might help?), I think the zeds are more dangerous than you credit them with being.

And individual standard zombies, as used here, should NOT be a threat to an experienced character. It’s the hordes, that swamp you and constantly attack, that keep zeds scary at high levels.

[vache]

This is probably just me, but I think a regular zombie should be roughly equivalent to a fresh, average strength, no skill character in terms of toughness and damage output. The main advantage you should have over them is intelligence and coordination. You should be able to lead them around, engage them at a distance, produce superior weapons, or just completely ditch them, but if you just go charging in, even one on one, you should take a moderate amount of damage.

[greenpanda]

All in all, this character would be in nontrivial trouble after the last test (that's two clean/cauterizes there), and that's after 4 zeds. Though you may have had gear or skills not mentioned (pants might help?), I think the zeds are more dangerous than you credit them with being.

Do you think wearing only clothing on torso is an adequate test on zombies for you to say this?

Your torso is ok, the damage you received is from unprotected areas.
I was wearing similar protection on the other limbs as well, I just didn’t mention them.
Sure if you run around without pants and headgear and fight zombies you are going to get hurt. That is like wearing power armor and not wearing a helmet and claim that zombies are dangerous because they bite your head.
Since you are not wearing clothing on the other limbs, the damage on the limbs other than torso should be discounted as this discussion is about armor.
Did you reinforce clothing? I posted leather jacket of 12 which requires reinforcing.
Did you put leather jacket over the raincoat?
Did you let 4 of them surround you? This very rarely happens, hence clothing don’t get damaged fast enough that the attacks penetrate.

My current stats:

With the exception of shock and hulks, the rest of the zombies are feeble.
My stats are lower before fighting the hordes.
A look at brute gives 4*8 damage. My current gear for torso gives around 19(leather jacket 12 + raincoat 7, ignoring chest rig +bag due to low coverage) which is higher than the average dam of 16. A brute might get 1-4 swings at me before I poke it to death with my spear. I met less than 10 brutes in a 800 points horde. Even if all zombies change to brutes it is still easy.
Which explains why I find hordes a walk over. Plus I can fight at night so I don’t get surrounded, use night vision, use range weapons, heal and wear better armor, I could have worn a trenchcoat which is better than raincoat as well as an inner layer(I should be able to layer twice without encumbrance).
Currently I don’t even have to heal, never got infected, I just poke them with my spear and avoid getting surrounded.

[KA101]

Yes, I was fighting. Test results for each were taken after I killed all 4 with the knife spear. I was using a random char with 11 rather than 6 chargen points, and skills/gear direct from the debug menu to comply with the “high melee” spec. I didn’t record the stats but I’m confident most were at/below 10.

looks at High-Powered stats

OK, there’s your problem.

That character is obviously built for being a melee monster. 15 points mostly from food allergies (Cooked Meat + Clean Water, ahoy!), melee & weapon skills at/above 10 (so you’re not just a good fighter, but one of the best in the world), and you were only talking about torso gear in that post.

The same zeds that pose a threat to starting characters are not gonna do much to Combat Monster. That’s kinda intentional as I for one don’t want to force Combat Monster as the only viable character type.

You do need a bigger challenge, though buffing generi-zeds probably isn’t it. The J-9 never happens in an actual game situation, so it’s not appropriate here.

dispatches a squadron of zed bio-operators, who are notably absent from that kill-sheet Get 'em, girls & boys.

[greenpanda]

High combat skill not an issue as it was easy when the skills were low 3-4 points.
It is because I am well protected by leather that I can whack zombies and raise my combat skills.
I only need enough skills to hit them after considering encumbrance.
I get hit a lot thanks to my dodge of 2 but they just can’t penetrate my clothing.
A weaker char will just get more hits and block less as they kill slower and still don’t get hurt until the clothing starts getting damaged.

Currently, I throw stones and use traps until I get leather clothing and enough tailoring to reinforce them, then I can clear out towns and hordes.

My build is a generalist build and not for melee actually. Strength= +weight +health, mostly I’m afraid of getting shot.

[Murphy]

I played a character with 10 in all stats, and one with 8 in all stats. The difference is HUGE.

[Weyrling]

Yea 14 Str and 12 Dex is a huge bonus to melee fighting, plus you’re wearing atleast 2 layers of armor on every part of your body.

It seems fine to me, as you’re already prepared for zombies, you’re strong, agile, armored, and wielding a proper anti-zombie weapon, I think that a better solution would be having zombies do more damage to what you’re wearing, I can’t bite through a leather jacket, but I would definitely damage it (and my teeth might get ripped out, but what does a zombie care about that?).

[greenpanda]

My char has 2 in dodge not that good at dodging.
If you damage my stuff, I’ll just repair it before the next fight. I’m already doing a lot of repairs as it is, I get hit a lot.
Wearing 2 layers I of clothing should not mean I’m immune to zombies. I’m wearing a leather jacket and some cloth and I cannot die from zombies. Is this the intended difficulty of the game?

I don’t consider leather jacket and a raincoat armored, neither is tights and leather pants, these are stuff you find easily from the start.
Even if they hit me, most zombies can’t damage me, why does my stats matter?
If I’m weaker at melee, I kill zombies slower, zombies get more attacks, which means that they can eventually damage my armor so that their attacks will penetrate. That will require them to whack at me for quite a while.
Is this an issue of character stats or armor?

Zombies will need to hit me often enough that my armor gets damaged and they can then hurt me.
But
1: The zombies will die before they get damage two layers.
2: I’ll repair it before the next fight.

I’ll take a weaker char with all 8 in all stats and poor traits and hopefully the zombies will not be a cakewalk.
But what will happen when I meet bullets?

Is the issue my character or armor or zombies?
Based on my experience and numbers, I think it is armor.

What is happening in your gameworld? Is your 10/10/10/10 char wearing leather getting killed by zombies? How about scratches? Do they get scratches from zombies?

[FunsizeNinja123]

Your Character.

[greenpanda]

Your Character.

Explain.
I’ve given my reasons, you should explain rather than give a two word reply.

For me:
Leather + rain coat = 19 protection.
Most zombies do less than 19 damage.

[vache]

Is this from pre or post armor nerf?

[greenpanda]

Post-nerf, reinforced leather jacket gives 16 or 18 pre-nerf, 12 post.

Starting a 8/8/8/8 char with thin skin trait now on day 2. Managed to find a full set of leather clothing and a rain coat.
Zombies so far can’t penetrate my torso clothing. I got hit in the eye though, that’s pretty rare.
Melee is 3 now and but with my 3 encumbrance, I’m missing too often to take on a horde.
I should have taken night vision.
Also found a house full of guns and mods, guess I won’t be using them for the time being.