I think armors are overpowered

[latogato]

I started the game with version 0.8 and i found the zombies dangerous. Armors helped a lot to survive then, but somewhere between 0.8 and 0.A the armors (clothes etc, all stuff you can wear and has bash and cut resist) became too powerful.

Simply, you got some armor and you can resist almost all the damage. Zombies, zombears, many of the monsters are not dangerous anymore, they are just boring nuisances.

Right now, my character with common cold, woke up in the middle of the night, because the horde started to take apart his RV. 192 zeds later, my character survived with some minor wounds and lost only his messenger bag. Most of the damage occured by acid and few shrapnels, because i started fires after the fight became too long and boring.

Yesterday i tried to play with 0.1 and five zombie child almost killed my character, while in 0.A i can outrun the shelter surrounding zombies and survive with some ripped clothes and negligible wounds.

If i remember correctly, in 0.8 the armor bash and cut resists was divided by 6.
If i read the code correctly, armors now use their full resist values against the damage.
I think, armor make the character almost invincible and that’s ruins the gameplay.

[vache]

Github issues describing armor balance issues:

Issue: (Game Balance) Late-game armour is too powerful

Belted-layer related balance changes

I have noticed the same thing in my recent games. Armor values seem like they need to be cut across the board. MBR vests and the like should be powerful and protective, but with standard survivor starting gear, low stats, and no skills, I could defeat about 6 regular Zs and 4 cop Zs without relying on bush kiting and only took minimal damage in the process.

[John_Candlebury]

Why are you wearing exactly?

I have found that theres a very pronounced gap between them, clothes switch from making you invulnerable to not offering any protection almost immediately.

Case in point try to wear nothing but you starter civilian clothes (dont wear leather you cheater!) get hit by a normal zed take note of results, then repeat the exeriment while wearing a MBR vest and army pants, compare results.

I agree, most paramilitary/army gear could do with a reduction to their armor stats (MBR vests are by far the worst offender).

[jimboblordofeskimos]

MBRs are meant to be heavy armor though. They arent exactly common and cant be repaired.

[bugsniper]

MBR vests currently provide less coverage and usually more encumbrance than a military jacket, which makes it a no-brainer that MBR vests are inferior like cheapskate armor. This is completely counterintuitive and takes away from the satisfaction of finding a high-tech piece of armor.

[KA101]

MBR vests currently provide less coverage and usually more encumbrance than a military jacket, which makes it a no-brainer that MBR vests are inferior like cheapskate armor. This is completely counterintuitive and takes away from the satisfaction of finding a high-tech piece of armor.

MBR, last I checked, was a heavy-duty vest that accepted additional plates. It’s protection where it counts, provided you’re concerned about shooting and getting shot at.

Army jackets are ballistic fabric–tough, but shouldn’t stop bullets. That’s what the vests are for.

And leather’s a good anti-melee & anti-bite protection IRL. I wear it if I’m expecting trouble.

[The_Lone_Badger]

I go punched repeatedly by a Hulk for ‘no damage’ while wearing two army jackets (which really shouldn’t provide much protection at all against that kind of blunt-force trauma).

[latogato]

Github issues describing armor balance issues:

Thanks! Good to know it’s already on the issue list.

Why are you wearing exactly?

i changed a kevlar vest, an army pants and my rain coat to light survivor suit. i looted it from a zombie survivor. Also i wield a fire axe. That’s also an issue i think, fire axe is a very powerful weapon and so easy to find one.

Case in point try to wear nothing but you starter civilian clothes (dont wear leather you cheater!) get hit by a normal zed take note of results, then repeat the exeriment while wearing a MBR vest and army pants, compare results.

My problem is not just the military armors, but the everyday clothes. They are overpowered too. So i made an experiment with a naked and clothed characters vs one zombie.

Naked man vs zombie:

max hp is 90.
bites torso -10 hp, torso has 80 hp, deep bite, 2 pain
hits torso -3 hp torso has 77 hp
bites right leg -5 hp right leg has 85 hp, pain 3
hits torso -4 hp torso has 73 hp, pain 4
bites torso -9 hp torso has 64 hp, pain 6
hits torso -5 hp torso has 59 hp, pain 7
bites right arm -6 hp right arm has 84 hp, pain 8
hits torso -6 hp torso has 53 hp, pain 9
bites torso -9 hp torso has 44 hp, pain 11
bites torso -9 hp torso has 35 hp, pain 13
bites right arm -9 hp right arm has 75 hp, pain 15, -1 dex, 1- str, -1 int
hits torso -5 hp torso has 30 hp, pain 16
hits torso -6 hp torso has 24 hp, pain 17
bites torso -8 hp torso has 16 hp, pain 19
hits torso -5 hp torso has 11 hp, pain 20
bites torso -6 hp torso has 5 hp, pain 21
hits torso -3 hp torso has 2 hp, pain 21
hits torso…

killed by zombie after got 17 wounds, zombie inflicted 108 damage.

Clothed man vs zombie. I tried to use clothes with 8 bash and cut protection, to make the difference more obvious.

clothes vs zombie
max hp is 90.
body cover bash cut cloth
torso 95% 8 8 jumpsuit
head 100 6 6 helmet liner
eyes 85 8 10 sunglasses
mouth 100 8 8 filter mask
arms 95% 8 8 jumpsuit
hands 95 8 8 leather gloves
legs 95% 8 8 jumpsuit
feet 100 8 8 western boots

bites head armor protects
hits torso -2 hp torso has 88 hp
bites right arm -10 hp right arm has 80 hp <- i think it was a lucky bite, not protected by armor
bites torso -2 hp torso has 86 hp
bites right leg armor protects
bites left foot armor protects
hits torso armor protects
bites torso armor protects
bites torso -1 hp torso has 85 hp
bites head armor protects
hits torso armor protects
bites head -6 hp head has 84 hp
hits torso armor protects
bites torso -1 hp head has 83 hp
bites right arm armor protects
bites torso -3 hp torso has 83 hp, pain 2
hits torso armor protects
bites left leg armor protects
hits torso armor protects
bites right leg armor protects
hits torso armor protects

With 20 successful attacks the zombie inflicted only 25 damage and the character was completely protected from 70% of this attacks by his “armor”.

Also i tried it with clothes with 2 bash/cut protection, i was just lazy to write down every hits. The result was 2 completely protected hits from the 20, union suit was destroyed from the 19. hits and the zed inflicted 6 hp damage on head, 52 on torso and 3 on the left arm.

So, clothes and armors are overpowered or the monsters are seriously underpowered…

[John_Candlebury]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:3, topic:6154”]Case in point try to wear nothing but you starter civilian clothes (dont wear leather you cheater!) get hit by a normal zed take note of results, then repeat the exeriment while wearing a MBR vest and army pants, compare results.

My problem is not just the military armors, but the everyday clothes. They are overpowered too. So i made an experiment with a naked and clothed characters vs one zombie.

With 20 successful attacks the zombie inflicted only 25 damage and the character was completely protected from 70% of this attacks by his “armor”.

Also i tried it with clothes with 2 bash/cut protection, i was just lazy to write down every hits. The result was 2 completely protected hits from the 20, union suit was destroyed from the 19. hits and the zed inflicted 6 hp damage on head, 52 on torso and 3 on the left arm.

So, clothes and armors are overpowered or the monsters are seriously underpowered…[/quote]

Well its been a while since I last played seriously, so it might have changed in the meantime it does seem a tad strong for most clothes and probably deserves a decent reduction (or an increase in zombie skills and attack damage).

But also remember that zombies are meant to be dangerous not because a single one can violently murder you, but because they are just so many of them, and that actually having the player to die after taking 30 hits or so would make the game incredibly tedious. Increasing the default spawns of zombies may help.

[Jakers]

Perhaps to fix this, complete blocks of damage should be very unlikely/removed. It could say ‘Your armour blocks off most of the blow.’ and instead of total damage blocks it should instead deal a single point of damage. This would make combat still interesting throughout the game and make the combat system still in the style of ‘don’t go running in blindly like a guy on crack.’ (Although that is pretty much my tactic.)

But I agree with this. Ever since I made that plated leather armour (CBA to make survivor suits, plated leather armour has better protection for its encumbrance value.) I’ve been basically invincible. Once I accidently killed a bear with my hands because I thought I was wielding my rapier, and yet I still only took no damage.

[Khrysanth]

Armors should reduce damage, possibly to 0, rather than outright eliminating it. Also, cutting damage should be converted to bashing by most armors after the reduction. This would allow leather to both be protective against raw damage (you take less), but also by converting it into bashing damage (you don’t bleed out), without needing absurdly high protection values.

[kevin.granade]

It looks like part of the problem here is a few bugs in the layering code that let you stack many clothing types with minimal layering penalties. When I see examples like wearing two jumpsuits along with yet more clothing on the same body parts, it makes me think that’s the real problem, or at least that we need to get that fixed before we can get a clear look at balancing armor values.

[acehawk]

Just want to comment about MBR vests, I personally think they seem pretty common, but I also think they are pretty terrible. I only use them if I can’t find anything with better coverage, because while they do negate loads of damage they let way too much through to be worthwhile because of their 85% coverage.

I also want to mention I do thing armor is OP as it is right now, but I also think it shouldn’t be hard to be immune to regular zeds, biting and scratching doesn’t take much to negate. Clothing shouldn’t do it, but light leather armors should do it. Being immune to brutes, hulks, and turrets however should take heavier stuff.

[Cat09]

I’m inclined to agree with acehawk that regular zombies should be pretty simple to negate.
cutting damage does seem like it should be converted at a reduced rate into bashing.
there is another factor though… not all damage can be seen as cutting or bashing. a bear or hulk could literally pick you up and tear you in half, or at least tear off an arm. while armor might mitigate this to some degree it isn’t precisely the same, not sure how that’d be represented, but it doesn’t seem to be represented in the current model.
it seems like hulks should just kill you in melee anyhow, and throw furniture at you…

[latogato]

clothes … probably deserves a decent reduction (or an increase in zombie skills and attack damage). … Increasing the default spawns of zombies may help.

I hope the protection values will be reduced. Increasing the spawns is does not matter if they can’t hurt you.

Perhaps to fix this, complete blocks of damage should be very unlikely/removed…it should instead deal a single point of damage.

I think it is a good idea, but i’m sure somebody will scream: - omg, a zombie child hurts me through my power armor!
Maybe it’s should be a chance related to make it believable. Chance would be like caused_damage to armor_protection.

Example: I had a light survival suit with 20 bash protection when i fought against that 192 zombies. For the simplicity, let’s assume they was ordinary zombies without bite attack and each of them attacked me three times before i killed them. Each zombie can hit 2-6 damage (average damage is 4) so they had 10%-30% chance (average 20% chance) to inflict 1 hp damage. That’s would be 1923(4/20) or 115 damage. Against a power armor (132 bash) that’s would be 1923(4/132) or 17 damage. I think that’s would be fine.

Once I accidently killed a bear with my hands because I thought I was wielding my rapier, and yet I still only took no damage.

It’s hilarious, poor bear!

Also, cutting damage should be converted to bashing by most armors after the reduction.

I like the idea, cutting damage lost it’s “edge”, but still hurts.

not all damage can be seen as cutting or bashing. a bear or hulk could literally pick you up and tear you in half, or at least tear off an arm.

Maybe we need a new type of damage: crush. It’s would be a bash damage but the armor should have reduced protection against it. Just like the stab weapons treated in the game: cut weapons against 0.8*armor protection.

…before we can get a clear look at balancing armor values

I think you already made a great work with the layering, it’s great if you can make it even better.
I think armor values are really off right now and need a rebalancing.