Survivor Suit needs buff

[Pandromidal]

Noticing a lot of armor has had it’s protection nerfed, but it seams like someone has been over zealous with survival gear.

MBR vest (empty)
Encumbrance:15 Storage:10 Bash: 12 Cut: 24 Acid:0 Fire:0 Environmental:0

Craft a survivor suit with that vest though and it gives:
Encumbrance:25 Storage:28 Bash: 12 Cut: 18 Acid:1 Fire:1 Environmental:1

MBR vest (empty) previously had:
Encumbrance:15 Storage:10 Bash: 16 Cut: 32 Acid:40 Fire:28 Environmental:0 Elec:16

Survivor suit previously had:
Encumbrance:25 Storage:28 Bash:24 Cut: 40 Acid:56 Fire:32 Environmental:3 Elec:24

So Survivor suit changed from an upgrade to a downgrade. There’s similar issues for a bunch of the survivor gear. Survivor gear was handy because previously it was a clear winner over most options for your average character who had yet to aquire power armor, it was hard to craft requiring both massive amounts of supplies and skill, but it was worth it. It was nice getting survivor gear and not having to worry about the thousands of other clothing options. Now survior gear is kind of terrible.

So my question is: Is there anything stopping us from buffing survovor items back to their relative place compared with other items?

[StopSignal]

Damn, that’s crafting something that is almost worse than what was before. Woah.

[Coolthulhu]

You forgot about an extremely important detail: coverage.
MBR has only 85% coverage, survivor suit has 100%.

So Survivor suit changed from an upgrade to a downgrade. There's similar issues for a bunch of the survivor gear. Survivor gear was handy because previously it was a clear winner over most options for your average character who had yet to aquire power armor, it was hard to craft requiring both massive amounts of supplies and skill, but it was worth it. It was nice getting survivor gear and not having to worry about the thousands of other clothing options. Now survior gear is kind of terrible.

It’s still noticeably better than most other options, just not THAT much better. That 100% coverage makes it way more reliable than any comparable armor. It lets you drown in zombies and still come out on the other side with just minor scratches.
85% coverage armor, like the MBR, means there is 15% chance of the armor simply not blocking any damage at all. This means that an extended conflict, even with weak crap, can cause your pain to stack so much that you won’t be able to defend yourself.

So my question is: Is there anything stopping us from buffing survovor items back to their relative place compared with other items?

The part where it’s better off being a moderate buff over other items instead of being an instant win that you pretty much have to get.
No-brainer “choices” that have to be picked are a bad thing to have around. Old survivor armor was exactly that.

[SpadeDraco]

I wouldn’t mind it (all of the survivor gear) being nerfed further. Even in it’s current state it’s such a good armor option that it basically renders the whole clothing modification system completely obsolete. Not to mention that it totally craps all over the idea of balancing encumbrance\heat\ protection\weatherproofing etc. against one another.

[Rama_Tut]

My problem is not the balance of useful protection against useful protection, it’s the metagaming balance of gameplay vs annoyance. The reason I end up wearing survivor gear is mainly for the storage, so I when I’m raiding a lab I don’t have to keep going up and down 8 flights of stairs every time I want to remove a couple of jugs of bleach. In the reality of the game, having nothing else to do while waiting for my crops to grow, spending the day hauling supplies out of an abandoned lab is at least occupying my otherwise empty hours. On the other hand, real-life hours spent trudging up and down imaginary stairs with the contents of 50 imaginary computer terminals is boring scutwork I could otherwise be using cutting zombies in half with a chainsaw. So I wear survivor gear to minimize game drudgery.

A lot of stuff is like that in the game right now, especially traits and CBMs. I always use metabolic interchange + unified power system so that I only need to carry food in order to run my mp3 player, flashlight, soldering iron, and so on indefinitely without needing to reload them. I always install internal climate control so I don’t have to keep putting on and removing clothes every time the Sun comes out and then goes behind a cloud. There’s almost no part of gameplay which isn’t touched by metagaming like that right now.

[ZoneWizard]

Only bug I’ve seen, is they are not even spawning…AT ALL, from SURVIVOR zombies…yeah, that sucks after you take one down and end up with sh!t gear =/

[survivornaginata]

reason I end up wearing survivor gear is mainly for the storage

you better try scavenger or nomad gear.they also offer reasonable protection along crazy storage.

[ZoneWizard]

Since i normally die before being able to make either, what level of skills do I need for them?

[survivornaginata]

Since i normally die before being able to make either, what level of skills do I need for them?

if dedicated in grinding you can get nomad gear farily early at skill 5. needs reasonable amount of leather,plastic and rags.

scavenger gear gear is end gear at skill 8.need several salvageable items.

[ZoneWizard]

So whats the deal regarding survivor gear not on survivors? Anyone comment on that topic? It seems pretty silly to still have those zombies and gain no reward from them. Should be rare zombies. Besides the fact they should be tough and they kinda are, but I get annoyed not getting the darn loot they should be dropping. =/

[survivornaginata]

So whats the deal regarding survivor gear not on survivors? Anyone comment on that topic? It seems pretty silly to still have those zombies and gain no reward from them. Should be rare zombies. Besides the fact they should be tough and they kinda are, but I get annoyed not getting the darn loot they should be dropping. =/

they are imagined as starting survivors with basic makeshift weapons and basic armor in most cases.

[Valpo]

I had them drop survivor gear for me. maybe you been unlucky? Or it has been changed and i didn t notice

[Soyweiser]

So whats the deal regarding survivor gear not on survivors? Anyone comment on that topic? It seems pretty silly to still have those zombies and gain no reward from them. Should be rare zombies. Besides the fact they should be tough and they kinda are, but I get annoyed not getting the darn loot they should be dropping. =/

From the code:

    "id" : "mon_zombie_survivor",
    "name": "survivor zombie",
    "death_drops": "mon_zombie_survivor_death_drops",

And:

{
    "type" : "item_group",
    "subtype": "collection",
    "id": "mon_zombie_survivor_death_drops",
    "entries": [
      { "group": "clothing_outdoor_set", "damage": [1,4] },
      { "group": "bags", "damage": [1,4], "prob": 10 },
      { "distribution": [
        { "group": "book_survival", "prob": 15 },
        { "group": "gear_survival", "prob": 25, "damage": [ 1, 4 ] },
        { "group": "survivor_knife", "damage": [ 1, 4 ] },
        { "distribution": [
          { "group": "survivor_melee", "prob": 40, "damage": [ 1, 4 ] },
          { "group": "guns_survival", "prob": 60, "damage": [ 1, 4 ] }
        ], "prob": 50 },
        { "group": "survivor_grenades", "prob": 15, "damage": [ 1, 4 ] },
        { "group": "stash_food", "prob": 40 }
      ] },
      { "item": "cash_card" }
    ]
  },

I think you are having the wrong idea behind survivor gear, in this case. It is just the makeshift weapons, not the higher end craftable survivor stuff. more stuff like tools, weapons, etc. Aka, like survivornaginata said. Starting players who died.

[iceball3]

I think that the melee skill combined with the dodge skill AND the armor AND the health is mainly giving the impression that survivor zombies are extremely tough, which they are, especially considering low level characters.

For comparison:

The problem that causes the perception of them being so incredibly tough is the fact that they are so much more drastically difficult to kill than normal zombies, but have no fluffed out reason for being so besides the assumption that “Survivor” means they’re outfitted with “Survivor” tier crafted gear.

7:7 armor (a drastic increase from 0:0), a 50% increase in max health, and being able to actually dodge unencumbered low-level attacks make actually engaging the survivor zombie a completely different experience than engaging normal zombies.
But when it comes right down to it, the “armor” (just clothing, really) that survivor zombies drop is about the same as any other zombie, negating the only flavored reason it would have it’s armor rating.

The only solutions I can think of:
-Refluff the survivor zombies to be a common sub-brute evolution, noted to have dense, heavy flesh upon an uncannily swift frame.
or
-Change the survivor zombies to come equipped with Survivor tier gear, nerf their dodge and speed a little in favor of slightly extra armor rating. Have them drop damaged incomplete sets and versions of survivor gear and other “heavy clothing” that a survivor would pad themself with in the event of apocalypse (paper arm guards, 2-by-shins, you know, the makeshift armor).
or
-Keep the survivor zombie fluff as is, but drop their armor rating and dodge rating significantly.

[tarburst98]

i do agree that items should not downgrade from their components in any way. the survivor suit is the mbr vest with some extra stuff attached to it so i can’t see how the final product would be weaker in some way then the component. if you sew a pocket on a bullet proof vest it wont become worse at blocking bullets.
the skill requirements to make/repair/use the gear is the balance. anyone can just FIND an MBR vest and put it on, but to make a survivor suit requires good tailoring skills. saying “no item should ever be a clear winner” isn’t right in a game with levels and tiers.

[iceball3]

[quote=“tarburst98, post:15, topic:12261”]i do agree that items should not downgrade from their components in any way. the survivor suit is the mbr vest with some extra stuff attached to it so i can’t see how the final product would be weaker in some way then the component. if you sew a pocket on a bullet proof vest it wont become worse at blocking bullets.
the skill requirements to make/repair/use the gear is the balance. anyone can just FIND an MBR vest and put it on, but to make a survivor suit requires good tailoring skills. saying “no item should ever be a clear winner” isn’t right in a game with levels and tiers.[/quote]The MBR getting debuffed could be explained as cutting apart a layer of the kevlar and redestributing the plates for more coverage and connecting points, perhaps?

[Zireael]

[quote=“iceball3, post:14, topic:12261”]I think that the melee skill combined with the dodge skill AND the armor AND the health is mainly giving the impression that survivor zombies are extremely tough, which they are, especially considering low level characters.

For comparison:

The problem that causes the perception of them being so incredibly tough is the fact that they are so much more drastically difficult to kill than normal zombies, but have no fluffed out reason for being so besides the assumption that “Survivor” means they’re outfitted with “Survivor” tier crafted gear.

7:7 armor (a drastic increase from 0:0), a 50% increase in max health, and being able to actually dodge unencumbered low-level attacks make actually engaging the survivor zombie a completely different experience than engaging normal zombies.
But when it comes right down to it, the “armor” (just clothing, really) that survivor zombies drop is about the same as any other zombie, negating the only flavored reason it would have it’s armor rating.

The only solutions I can think of:
-Refluff the survivor zombies to be a common sub-brute evolution, noted to have dense, heavy flesh upon an uncannily swift frame.
or
-Change the survivor zombies to come equipped with Survivor tier gear, nerf their dodge and speed a little in favor of slightly extra armor rating. Have them drop damaged incomplete sets and versions of survivor gear and other “heavy clothing” that a survivor would pad themself with in the event of apocalypse (paper arm guards, 2-by-shins, you know, the makeshift armor).
or
-Keep the survivor zombie fluff as is, but drop their armor rating and dodge rating significantly.[/quote]

That’s a very good point.

[Coolthulhu]

7/7 is fine, player gets that much by wearing a hoodie+underwear.

It’s the regular zombie that needs a buff here.

[Sens]

Im around 5 years old survivor now and still use Heavy Survivor Suit, most of the stuff never even scratches me, even Hulks rarely dmg me for / , i melee them, unless im fighting a shoggoth or some group of chicken walkers, i dont see any reason for wearing power armor or needing more protection in general (PS. do have alloy bionics and 10 dodge thou).

[Valpo]

Do the armor bionics provide armor now?