Experimental Features: Zombie slave derail

[Belteshazzar]

I don’t see them as any more ‘dead’ that a brain damaged cancer patient. Remember, the players can have a load of goo in him too, it’s the source of all the mutated cells… same source as all the mutated zeds.

Just because they’ve lost all reason doesn’t mean they are now a shell, or even that some mental faculties could not eventually be restored.

Think of Half-life’s Headcrab zombies, the host still lives, even in cases it previously would have died from shock or blood loss… but it’s actions and higher thinking have been so suppressed or damaged that they are puppeteer-ed about.

[KA101]

Thank you for noticing. And yeah I don’t think a corpse would really want to break free of it’s bondage to the master as it isn’t technically enslaved, that’s like walking up to your car, chaining it up and laughing evilly as you tell it to drive about, while somebody is inside who can get in and out the doors easily and just looks at you like you’re a complete eejit.

The thing is that you’re harnessing the goo’s KILL THE INFECTEE THAT WE MAY REZ ITS CORPSE instinct. “Enslaved” zeds have just been mutilated to the point where they’ve no way to attack you.

But because they don’t realize that attacking you is useless, they keep following you around. Not because they’re friendly–they’re not, and squeezing a pheromone ball will demonstrate that–but because they don’t realize that they can’t hurt you.

[Nathan]

[quote=“Belteshazzar, post:141, topic:6900”]I don’t see them as any more ‘dead’ that a brain damaged cancer patient. Remember, the players can have a load of goo in him too, it’s the source of all the mutated cells… same source as all the mutated zeds.

Just because they’ve lost all reason doesn’t mean they are now a shell, or even that some mental faculties could not eventually be restored.

Think of Half-life’s Headcrab zombies, the host still lives, even in cases it previously would have died from shock or blood loss… but it’s actions and higher thinking have been so suppressed or damaged that they are puppeteer-ed about.[/quote]

According to the lore the goo can’t take over living bodies, even of insects. It has to wait for death to be able to exert control.

[KA101]

[quote=“Nathan_, post:143, topic:6900”][quote=“Belteshazzar, post:141, topic:6900”]I don’t see them as any more ‘dead’ that a brain damaged cancer patient. Remember, the players can have a load of goo in him too, it’s the source of all the mutated cells… same source as all the mutated zeds.

Just because they’ve lost all reason doesn’t mean they are now a shell, or even that some mental faculties could not eventually be restored.

Think of Half-life’s Headcrab zombies, the host still lives, even in cases it previously would have died from shock or blood loss… but it’s actions and higher thinking have been so suppressed or damaged that they are puppeteer-ed about.[/quote]

According to the lore the goo can’t take over living bodies, even of insects. It has to wait for death to be able to exert control.[/quote]

Correct, Nathan_. Zeds be dead, baby. Goo’s wearing 'em like a Bug wears an Edgar suit.

[Turtlicious]

[quote=“Belteshazzar, post:141, topic:6900”]I don’t see them as any more ‘dead’ that a brain damaged cancer patient. Remember, the players can have a load of goo in him too, it’s the source of all the mutated cells… same source as all the mutated zeds.

Just because they’ve lost all reason doesn’t mean they are now a shell, or even that some mental faculties could not eventually be restored.

Think of Half-life’s Headcrab zombies, the host still lives, even in cases it previously would have died from shock or blood loss… but it’s actions and higher thinking have been so suppressed or damaged that they are puppeteer-ed about.[/quote]

Yeah, but you’re wrong though, because in the lore the Goo can only infect the dead bodies of people, and it really is just making the dead body do a thing. It’s not actually controlling it’s thoughts / emotions or whatever.

[Reaper]

Reaper has made quite a number of pull requests*, quite a few have made it in, but he also pretty consistently refuses to fix issues we have with said pull requests, so if there is any disagreement he’s unwilling to change his code, therefore it doesn’t go in.

I said why I do not want to do what you want. Did you hear me? Not.
In hordes: i do light signals react, but excluded natural sources. You say “do with all sources”. Why i must do stupid things? Ok, i cut all this code and do new pr and add scent track react. You say: “Do not actual scent map and refresh by request. Use weather log.”. I said “Ok, but weather log is works? Correctly? How it work?” Now you remake weather i think it not work right. I place 3L jar under makeshift funnel, go to sleep and get only 2 water. I can not be sure in this code. I don’t want do fixes every time after weather code change. If you care about performance i know more easy way. But you not reply me. Sad.
In running mod you say: “running is not skill”. Ok, but swimming is skill right? In this case you know why running is not skill? I not. You don’t reply.
In car attach/detach mod you say: “Another way to remove parts”. You do not even want to understand it. It is modification of “wheel changing”. I can remove wheel change code now, because it duplicate him functions.
You’re trying to hear what you say, or not?

[kevin.granade]

Thanks for making my point for me at great length.

I said why I do not want to do what you want. Did you hear me? Not.

I read and understand your objections, I just don’t agree with them. Feel free to make a fork, good luck with it, but kindly stop blaming me for your unwillingness to take feedback.

[Turtlicious]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:147, topic:6900”]Thanks for making my point for me at great length.

I said why I do not want to do what you want. Did you hear me? Not.

I read and understand your objections, I just don’t agree with them. Feel free to make a fork, good luck with it, but kindly stop blaming me for your unwillingness to take feedback.[/quote]

You aren’t trying to tell him what to do, but he should do what you say, if there’s a distinction there I can’t see it. He did listen, he did discuss the issue, but in the end he disagreed. If at the end of that process he’s allowed to act on his own opinion, he’s a leader, if he’s not, he’s a Zlave.

and Zlavery is bad.

[Robik]

[quote=“Turtlicious, post:148, topic:6900”][quote=“Kevin Granade, post:147, topic:6900”]Thanks for making my point for me at great length.

I said why I do not want to do what you want. Did you hear me? Not.

I read and understand your objections, I just don’t agree with them. Feel free to make a fork, good luck with it, but kindly stop blaming me for your unwillingness to take feedback.[/quote]

You aren’t trying to tell him what to do, but he should do what you say, if there’s a distinction there I can’t see it. He did listen, he did discuss the issue, but in the end he disagreed. If at the end of that process he’s allowed to act on his own opinion, he’s a leader, if he’s not, he’s a Zlave.

and Zlavery is bad.[/quote]

Nope.

Reaper can say, ‘No, I am not doing it’. Slave would not have such liberty.
Kevin can also say ‘No, I am not going to merge this into my fork, feel free to maintain your own’. If Kevin had to merge everything without option of not doing it, he would be slave.

And as you said, Zlavery is bad.

[kilozombie]

Wait, peeps at Git said that running… shouldn’t be a skill?

Like you said- swimming’s a skill, and although running is less intensive, there is /still/ skill based to it. Which might be one of the reasons Reaper is frustrated.

[kevin.granade]

robik, I think turtalicious is saying the same thing you are, hard to tell, he’s a bit out of control with the pronouns there.

I thought it was odd that I couldn’t remember saying no to a running skill, turns out I didn’t.
http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=6825.msg141476#msg141476
I said no to an ENDURANCE skill, which is a completely different thing. If we have endurance it should be a stat along with str/dex/etc. You don’t ‘learn’ to have higher endurance.

[Turtlicious]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:151, topic:6900”]robik, I think turtalicious is saying the same thing you are, hard to tell, he’s a bit out of control with the pronouns there.

I thought it was odd that I couldn’t remember saying no to a running skill, turns out I didn’t.
http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=6825.msg141476#msg141476
I said no to an ENDURANCE skill, which is a completely different thing. If we have endurance it should be a stat along with str/dex/etc. You don’t ‘learn’ to have higher endurance.[/quote]

Actually, I was making a lighthearted jab at you for something you said a few months ago, that at the time I found a little silly.

[KA101]

[quote=“Turtlicious, post:152, topic:6900”][quote=“Kevin Granade, post:151, topic:6900”]robik, I think turtalicious is saying the same thing you are, hard to tell, he’s a bit out of control with the pronouns there.

I thought it was odd that I couldn’t remember saying no to a running skill, turns out I didn’t.
http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=6825.msg141476#msg141476
I said no to an ENDURANCE skill, which is a completely different thing. If we have endurance it should be a stat along with str/dex/etc. You don’t ‘learn’ to have higher endurance.[/quote]

Actually, I was making a lighthearted jab at you for something you said a few months ago, that at the time I found a little silly.[/quote]

Dev cycle’s a bit fast here. Next time, might quote the thing one of us said a few months ago, just in case we’re distracted and don’t immediately recall it.

[kevin.granade]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:151, topic:6900”]robik, I think turtalicious is saying the same thing you are, hard to tell, he’s a bit out of control with the pronouns there.

Actually, I was making a lighthearted jab at you for something you said a few months ago, that at the time I found a little silly.[/quote]
Oh THAT bullshit. How’s that fork going Turtalicious? Why haven’t I seen anything about Turtalicious Days Ahead on roguebasin?

[Turtlicious]

[quote=“Turtlicious, post:152, topic:6900”][quote=“Kevin Granade, post:151, topic:6900”]robik, I think turtalicious is saying the same thing you are, hard to tell, he’s a bit out of control with the pronouns there.

Actually, I was making a lighthearted jab at you for something you said a few months ago, that at the time I found a little silly.[/quote]
Oh THAT bullshit. How’s that fork going Turtalicious? Why haven’t I seen anything about Turtalicious Days Ahead on roguebasin?[/quote]Some jerk had eaten up all the goodwill before we could even get off the ground.

Then I tried to make a Kickstarter with a bunch of promises without a real plan.

I guess lightning never strikes the same place twice.

(<3)

[i2amroy]

[quote=“Robik, post:149, topic:6900”]Reaper can say, ‘No, I am not doing it’. Slave would not have such liberty.
Kevin can also say ‘No, I am not going to merge this into my fork, feel free to maintain your own’. If Kevin had to merge everything without option of not doing it, he would be slave.[/quote]
Indeed. And that’s totally ok. The thing that annoys me is when people complain that “Devs obviously don’t want X” when really what it really is is that their PR hasn’t met the quality required for the mainline. It’s open source, so anyone can make their own branch, but if you aren’t willing to put in the work required to make your PR meet the quality standards required, then you give up your right to complain when it isn’t merged. It’s like complaining that you aren’t being seated at a restaurant when you refused to tell the maître d the name on your reservation.

[Turtlicious]

[quote=“i2amroy, post:156, topic:6900”][quote=“Robik, post:149, topic:6900”]Reaper can say, ‘No, I am not doing it’. Slave would not have such liberty.
Kevin can also say ‘No, I am not going to merge this into my fork, feel free to maintain your own’. If Kevin had to merge everything without option of not doing it, he would be slave.[/quote]
Indeed. And that’s totally ok. The thing that annoys me is when people complain that “Devs obviously don’t want X” when really what it really is is that their PR hasn’t met the quality required for the mainline. It’s open source, so anyone can make their own branch, but if you aren’t willing to put in the work required to make your PR meet the quality standards required, then you give up your right to complain when it isn’t merged. It’s like complaining that you aren’t being seated at a restaurant when you refused to tell the maître d the name on your reservation.[/quote]

No that’s a bit over blown, and the slave comparison is incredibly silly. He’s a guy managing pull requests, and because he’s a top contributor who believes very deeply in this project, his say has a lot of pull. Like everyone he’s human and makes mistakes from time to time. Everyone does.

The problem is the moment someone disagrees his go to answer is, in a more polite way, to say “Fuck off and do your own fork.” Which normally be ok, but none of the little issues is enough to get it’s own following, so instead more and more devs just kind of peter out because they don’t want to deal with the political side of it.

As for i2amroy’s analogy, you’re vastly understating the amount of work our devs do. It’s not as simple as “Give me your name.” It’s “spend a few hours, or even a few days fixing code because it’s not how I want to play the game.” We’re missing out because of it. It sucks but that’s where we are right now.

[kevin.granade]

The problem is the moment someone disagrees his go to answer is, in a more polite way, to say “Fuck off and do your own fork.”

Actually my go to answer when someone disagrees is to discuss the issue, but the handful of times I have put my foot down on some issue, people come out of the woodwork to complain about it, as if I haven’t been perfectly clear for going on two years now that I’m leading the project, and the final say is mine.

Which normally be ok, but none of the little issues is enough to get it’s own following,

In other words, either I’m doing enough things right that the majority DOES agree with me, or no one is willing to step up and do the work, in which case if I stepped off the project would collapse. In what way is this supposed to support your argument? For that matter, what is your argument? The only productive thing I can get out of it is that you expect me to keep doing the work I’m doing now, but abscond responsibility for quality of the game by allowing myself to be overruled by some nebulous, “will of the people”.

so instead more and more devs just kind of peter out because they don’t want to deal with the political side of it.

citation needed. Yes devs come and go, but the majority of disappearances I’m aware of in productive developers are simply due to other commitments interfering. The number of contributors has stayed more or less constant for the last year, and I’m extremely happy about the skill levels of the devs I have the honor to work with on this project.

As for i2amroy’s analogy, you’re vastly understating the amount of work our devs do. It’s not as simple as “Give me your name.” It’s “spend a few hours, or even a few days fixing code because it’s not how I want to play the game.” We’re missing out because of it. It sucks but that’s where we are right now.

It’s an analogy, sheesh.
The situation is VERY simple, if I think something is a good idea and implemented well, I merge it, if I think it’s a bad idea or implemented badly, I don’t.

I’m absolutely flabbergasted that anyone can find fault with me making decisions about what I do with MY fork of the code. I don’t have any special permission, anyone can do what I do on github on their own fork, and people have tried, but guess what? I’m the only one that has made it work. Just because you want things to be different doesn’t give you the right to tell me what to do with my own time.

The vast, vast majority (literally more than 99.9%) of contributions can be accommodated in some way. The exceptions are generally people who refuse to listen to feedback.

One last point, instead of focusing on a handful of controversies, you might want to ask yourself why Rivet, KA101, i2amroy, acidia, VlasovVitaly, Ozone, CiB, John Candlebury, swwu, and codehero continue to contribute after months and months of exposure to my draconian rule?

[Turtlicious]

I guess when people gave you $9,000 they expected a certain level of input, lol.

e: If people KEEP crawling out of the woodwork, idk how it’s still surprising.

e2: You made it work because you have a ton of momentum, not because you’re John Galt.

[kevin.granade]

So you concede all my points?

Expecting “a certain level of input” to mean “having the lead developer do what you say against their judgement” is simply absurd.