Experimental Features: Zombie slave derail

Game Talk The Bunker
161

Really? You want quality? Where is standards of quality? Write “quality.md” for begin. It’s not about the quality, but about just different way for solve one task. Not tell me about quality. You approve bugs, then approve fixes and all ok. I look at old weather system and not think, that my code so bad. In any case it is works.
In car attach mod Kevin said me something like “we need rework all car construction code”. I make small shit-change in this shit-code. I can rewrite it, but i don’t know right way to do it. I can’t change this system, because i may break it. If old is broken and new is not ready - is not good.

fork
Yes. I can make fork. I can make it 2 months ago. My dark side wants it. But my white side wants to all be happy. You have bug fixes, updates, i have code my in main repo and feedback. You wants to be most clever and don't wants discuss? Ok. Just write "We most clever guys and we don't give a fuck." in repo face page, and i have no more questions.
Slave
I not tell "you must be my slave agagagaga". Lets discuss. But you not want.
162

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:160, topic:6900”]So you concede all my points? :slight_smile:

Expecting “a certain level of input” to mean “having the lead developer do what you say against their judgement” is simply absurd.[/quote]

Not… Really?

Also, I’m not debating, I’m not going to get sucked into one of those long drawn out forum debates where you quote each person on a statement by statement basis and try to prove you can wikipedia / google better then the other guy. I’m airing out some issues I and other have seen. (This isn’t the only place Cataclysm is discussed!)

I mean you called yourself a “slave” when people asked you to just merge a pull request the majority of them wanted. That’s dumb, you’re no more a slave to us then you are to your employer!

Unless you believe being employed is slavery, then we probably have such drastically different views that there probably could never be a middle ground.

163

Kevin, you leader and manage all incoming code. If you don’t like way of implementation it is your personal opinion. If it your opinion it not means, that it absolute true. Try to be objective, or give real arguments for you opinion. “Because I said so / i don’t like it” - is not good argument.
'
And we can find way. I can write it as module (just include file). I can do it switchable. You can mark it as “experimental feature”, and we can work on problems. I think is a good idea make modular game. Every can make balance for self and can switch on/off need features for him. I’m sorry that you’re so fixated on themselves.

164

Can you really not see how INCREDIBLY problematic it is to do development based on the opinions of whoever happens to be wandering by at the moment?

Ignoring the development angle, if I get enough people together, come to your house, and tell you to do stuff, “because the majority wants it”, do you do it? That doesn’t even start to make any kind of sense, why the hell would I subject myself to that?

165

Can you really not see how INCREDIBLY problematic it is to do development based on the opinions of whoever happens to be wandering by at the moment?

Ignoring the development angle, if I get enough people together, come to your house, and tell you to do stuff, “because the majority wants it”, do you do it? That doesn’t even start to make any kind of sense, why the hell would I subject myself to that?[/quote]

Did you give me 9k to remodel my home? Because, if so, yeah.

Also, no not really since I’m not suggesting you grab a dude, “Is this cool? Yeah? Rad,” but noticing, “Hey a lot of people want this or at least passionate enough to argue, Let’s put it in for a while and see what the wider opinion is.”

Does github not let you Un-pull PR’s?

166

4:28 -> 5:22 AM. Headache came and went.

I put up with Kevin’s “draconian rule” (IME it’s not that draconian) because he’s done a bloody fine job of understanding the code. He’s in the habit of going “MY fork”, which–granted–is about the harshest (G-rated) possible way he could put it.

I tend to think of it as “Kevin’s the one whose e-mail account is on the title screen. He’s the one who gets flak if something goes wrong. He’s one of a few who answer when someone pops a mod report on the forums. Something isn’t working in DDA?–it does happen :wink: --he’s ultimately the one who has to deal with it.”

So if he decides that something isn’t worth adding, I imagine he probably has good reason. And if he doesn’t, badgering him about it doesn’t seem likely to help.

I’ll see your links to these nebulous Other Places DDA Is Discussed. We check in on the Bay12 thread, and I’ve looked at the reddit once or twice; others, I’m not personally familiar.

As for the “be objective” thing: oddly enough, I don’t recall ever having been asked to stop and be objective because I merged something. Hell, just yesterday I pretty much said “Screw it, I like this PR, I think it’s a good idea, and I’m not gonna bother waiting for a rewrite on this text string. BAM merged.” No complaints, at least until after I’ve advertised it here in the forum.

Re Kickstarter: I seriously considered contributing. Unfortunately I wasn’t comfortable putting my banking info online, so there’s no custom KA101 building, and $40 or so less in the account. But having paid attention to the process, I know that there was no $9,000 “Buy the controlling interest in DDA” level. The backers–mostly $40-60 or so per, IIRC?) are getting what they paid for, to the best of our ability. We’re aware that they’ve waited a long time for their custom NPCs. Working on it. Same with z-levels.

167

[quote=“KA101, post:166, topic:6900”]4:28 -> 5:22 AM. Headache came and went.

I put up with Kevin’s “draconian rule” (IME it’s not that draconian) because he’s done a bloody fine job of understanding the code. He’s in the habit of going “MY fork”, which–granted–is about the harshest (G-rated) possible way he could put it.

I tend to think of it as “Kevin’s the one whose e-mail account is on the title screen. He’s the one who gets flak if something goes wrong. He’s one of a few who answer when someone pops a mod report on the forums. Something isn’t working in DDA?–it does happen :wink: --he’s ultimately the one who has to deal with it.”

So if he decides that something isn’t worth adding, I imagine he probably has good reason. And if he doesn’t, badgering him about it doesn’t seem likely to help.

I’ll see your links to these nebulous Other Places DDA Is Discussed. We check in on the Bay12 thread, and I’ve looked at the reddit once or twice; others, I’m not personally familiar.

As for the “be objective” thing: oddly enough, I don’t recall ever having been asked to stop and be objective because I merged something. Hell, just yesterday I pretty much said “Screw it, I like this PR, I think it’s a good idea, and I’m not gonna bother waiting for a rewrite on this text string. BAM merged.” No complaints, at least until after I’ve advertised it here in the forum.

Re Kickstarter: I seriously considered contributing. Unfortunately I wasn’t comfortable putting my banking info online, so there’s no custom KA101 building, and $40 or so less in the account. But having paid attention to the process, I know that there was no $9,000 “Buy the controlling interest in DDA” level. The backers–mostly $40-60 or so per, IIRC?) are getting what they paid for, to the best of our ability. We’re aware that they’ve waited a long time for their custom NPCs. Working on it. Same with z-levels.[/quote]

And Scenarios.

And Functioning Tileset support. (Doesn’t work with vehicles, or the map.)

There is more to the internet then Reddit and Bay12. Like somethingawful, facepunch, /vg/ and a bunch of other sites.

The only person who used the word “Draconian” was Granade.

e: The cataclysm dda reddit is dead as hell.

168

It has become more than a zombie slave derail!? Mr. Epic Cheese Man responds: “Lawks, I don’t think we can allow that!”

169

This has gone from a derail to a trainwreck.

170

Did you give me 9k to remodel my home? Because, if so, yeah.[/quote]
So if I give you some money to hire a contractor to add certain features to your house, then I show up with some people and “vote” that you personally should do unrelated work a certain way, that’s reasonable?

“If you give us money, we’ll use it to hire a dev to work on these features.” That is the Kickstarter in a nutshell, I’m not working for hire, all my contributions are simply my contributions, they have nothing to do with the Kickstarter. A bunch of Galenevil’s contributions are associated with the Kickstarter, when someone claims the code bounties on 3D support, those will be associated with the Kickstarter, nothing else has a thing to do with it.
Even if someone is working on a Kickstarter feature, I would still turn it down if it doesn’t work right, even if “everyone else” wanted it in, because that’s my role in this project.

Let me put this as simply as possible, I don’t work for you.

Passion has nothing to do with it, a lot of people are very passionate about things they are totally wrong about. I’m running the project in part because a lot of people acknowledge I have pretty good taste about this stuff. I listen very carefully to input about things, but if I disagree, I disagree. You are literally saying I should take actions that I personally think are wrong because “a lot” of people disagree with me.

Again, popular vote isn’t any way to make decisions like this, so “stick it in and see” is not a reasonable thing to do. Either it’s a good idea or it isn’t. If I’m not sure if something is a good or bad idea, that might be reasonable, but in the cases we’re talking about, they’re bad ideas, so it’s moot.

171

That I should do work? No of course not, but if the work you and your people needs my suggestion, I’ll sign off on it since it’s basically you’re money that drew all these people to my home, and I really don’t mind living with whatever small changes since ultimately, I got a shitton of money for a makeover. I’d be grateful.

Because without everyone else putting money and time in, no-one would even give two shits about my home.

I just feel like it’s shitty you basically bullshitted 9k from the community, showed nothing for it, and don’t really show any culpability.

As for the second bit, what I’m saying is that it’s incredibly arrogant to assume that when a large group of people disagree with you, that there is no possible way you could be wrong. That’s an attitude that’s pretty terrible to have when you tell people you’re a leader.

When you an open source project like this, and ask for the community to pitch in, popular vote is definitely the way to handle issues like this. You haven’t really given an argument against. My argument is that most people have a general idea of what they want, and you marketed a product for them, took money from them, based on the idea “If you give me money, I’ll give you what you want.”

Is it really that painful to just TRY what the majority wants? Like, I’m not even saying do it for every pull request, but when there seems to be a contentious issue that you disagree with, you should see WHY people want it.

172

Do you actually think it is the job of leadership to facilitate majority rule? Spoiler alert: It’s not. Leaders are tasked with leadership.

Turtlicious, I get the distinct impression that whenever you post here, somewhere there is a folding table surrounded by Girl Scouts doing macreme(sp?) who are sorely missing the clucking presence of their mother hen/assistant troop leader.

When you venture out into The Real World IRL you will eventually find that frequent acquiescence to passionate mobs is a very undesirable, though all too common, characteristic for leaders to demonstrate.

Turtlicious, please point to your contributions to DDA. Where can I find your content in-game? As far as I can tell, your only contribution to the game thus far has been a sweeping and tangential forum argument in which you consistently stake out the most absurd and ridiculous positions possible. Every minute Kevin spends responding to the deluge of bile, phlegm, and raw sewage which constantly pours from your mouth is another minute where he’s not coding DDA. /tableflip

173

I had a long and detailed response typed out, but after being ninja’ed by Yossarian23 I’m going to pitch it and go back to working on the project. This has been an utter waste of time, and I apologize for ever dignifying any of Turtalicious’ absurd posts with a response.

174

[quote=“Yossarian23, post:172, topic:6900”]Do you actually think it is the job of leadership to facilitate majority rule? Spoiler alert: It’s not. Leaders are tasked with leadership.

Turtlicious, I get the distinct impression that whenever you post here, somewhere there is a folding table surrounded by Girl Scouts doing macreme(sp?) who are sorely missing the clucking presence of their mother hen/assistant troop leader.

When you venture out into The Real World IRL you will eventually find that frequent acquiescence to passionate mobs is a very undesirable, though all too common, characteristic for leaders to demonstrate.

Turtlicious, please point to your contributions to DDA. Where can I find your content in-game? As far as I can tell, your only contribution to the game thus far has been a sweeping and tangential forum argument in which you consistently stake out the most absurd and ridiculous positions possible. Every minute Kevin spends responding to the deluge of bile, phlegm, and raw sewage which constantly pours from your mouth is another minute where he’s not coding DDA. /tableflip[/quote]

It’s cool when you insult people for disagreeing with you. I contributed with my cash.

175

Turtlicious, you come across (to me) as malicious. You come across as somebody that would be used for a strawman argument. You also remind me of Driverboy/Lazycat.

Insults off the chest.

The coder we commissioned to work on the Z-lavels etc. buggered off and we didn’t get anything. But we still have a decent amount of money, so ALL of it (iirc) is being used as bounty rewards to complete the Kickstarter goals.

176

[quote=“kilozombie, post:175, topic:6900”]Turtlicious, you come across (to me) as malicious. You come across as somebody that would be used for a strawman argument. You also remind me of Driverboy/Lazycat.

Insults off the chest.

The coder we commissioned to work on the Z-lavels etc. buggered off and we didn’t get anything. But we still have a decent amount of money, so ALL of it (iirc) is being used as bounty rewards to complete the Kickstarter goals.[/quote]

There is nowhere close to 9k worth of bounties on bounty source. I’m not familiar with the term, “Insults off the chest.” I don’t know who Driverboy/Lazycat is.

https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/146201-cataclysm-dark-days-ahead

I’m not sure why saying, “Hey you should maybe listen to other people sometimes if they really like a feature!” Is malicious.

177

Which is what we do, but you seem to be appealing to numbers more often than not. As it stands, I barely see what ideas you’re trying to get changed, and whenever you mention anything related to a majority decision, I don’t see people agreeing with you, or at least, not enough to justify it being the majority. And you talk about people on SA and Facepunch, and those are uncounted, an unnumbered and ineffectual force multiplier you seem to bring out when you say “BUT EVERYONE DISLIKES THIS CHOICE.” Well shit, if they feel so strongly, maybe they should pop on over and let us know.

Also, from one of your prior posts,

My argument is that most people have a general idea of what they want, and you marketed a product for them, took money from them, based on the idea “If you give me money, I’ll give you what you want.”

Which is complete and utter bullshit because the idea wasn’t to put in money and you suddenly get executive veto, it was to put in money to assist in development of the game. I admit this went tits up when the dedicated programmer went away, but there was damage control in the form of the bounties.

178

You read wrong. Yes, some money was legitimately expended paying a developer who didn’t do what was expected. So it’s not all there, but all that remains is for bounties.

“insults off the chest” as in I’m taking them off my chest so we can discuss. But it’s clear you don’t want to discuss, you just want somebody to get mad at.

Datan sums this up better. I’m tired.

179

This ain’t a discussion; it’s about two clingers enjoying the thrashing - and they’re trying to single out Kevin in the terms of “missing a point” of an active project, the CataDDA. Furthermore, they’re trying to twist his attitude towards any upcoming devs, thus piling up more BS on the ill-image they’re trying to invoke on this community. If open-source wasn’t as graceful as it gets, it would be missing the forking opportunity for those enthusiastic devs with more progressive ideas. Instead of discussing the more up-to-date points of their efforts with the community, they’re speculating on the doubts prior to their own assessments when this Cataclysm branch is concerned.

Attempting to install guilt on any of the devs will make them only disapprove of your concepts and ideas.

180

Small note, but the coder that was hired (GalenEvil) got paid for the work that he did (he was hired on a weekly basis, IIRC). As such he was paid the majority of the money, leaving us with a portion left over after he left. In return he gave us pretty much all the tile set support that currently exists, did something like 90% of the work needed to support the modding and world generation systems, did a fair bit of work on save compatibility, as well as a fair number of other rewrites and fixes. (And a few of his PR’s are still waiting to be completed by anyone who wants to use them as inspiration to finish them and make them compatible with the latest version).

While he didn’t accomplish everything the kickstarted had planned, that’s more from underestimating the difficulty of tasks than it was from a lack of work on GalenEvil’s end.