that worries me; sorry i bothered you.
No bother at all! I will eventually get to being in water, once I get the current kinks worked out…
I think everyone will be happy to know that I’ve tied body temperature to hp now! And I am rewriting body equalization to work correctly.
[quote=“Shoes, post:75, topic:304”]Frostbite is now hard coded not to occur above freezing. Rain is not the reason you are cold in 50F, a combination of unbalanced sleep/hunger/body equalization is the reason you are cold. If you take off all your clothes in the rain, you do not get “more cold” due to being wet. Once wind and humidity exist, that will change.
This implementation started as a simple “I don’t like being able to sleep outdoors in the snow naked”. From there, it just snowballed to where we are now. I like the survival aspect of this game, and the fact that I did not need to layer up made me sad.
Off the top of my head, the impacts on gameplay are :
- Finding a proper place to sleep. The floor is no longer acceptable because of the cold penalties.
- Finding proper clothing. Simply going for pure storage won’t be enough come winter time; you might have to choose between storage and warmth.
- Meth, coke and other stimulants increase body temps (not implemented, but would be a nice draw back to stimulants)
and that’s it :3 Like I said, I am big on survival, so I like the idea of needing to gather supplies to keep warm. It was mentioned too that science labs could be made to have malfunctionning temperatures, so you would need to go into an ice cold lab or a super hot one. Bee hives and ant hills could also be warmer.[/quote]
Hmm. I admit, I’m a little concerned that your main reason for implementing this seems to be to make people find strategies for avoiding it.
Obviously obstacles are important, but for them to be a fun part of a game, there needs to be more than one way of handling them - there need to be interesting and challenging strategies to adopt, and the player should be able to adapt intuitively to the obstacle. As it stands, handling cold basically boils down to “Wear more/fewer clothes” and, as realistic as that may be, realism is not an end in itself.
If the cold system were better implemented, we might start to see strategies evolve from it. Perhaps enemies freeze from the cold, and some players will choose to brave the winter to take advantage of the weakened hulks and wyrms and get some hardcore looting in. Some players might choose to “hibernate” by stockpiling food, water, and fuel, and remaining indoors, avoiding the very real challenge of frostbite, in exchange for a lost season of productivity.
I admit that it’s hard for me to see where you’re going with temperature, and your talk of malfunctioning labs, for example, sounds very promising, and is exactly the kind of direction I’d like to see temperature go.
As it stands though, I’m concerned that the end goal of introducing temperature is “Make players wear warmer clothes”.
What you mention is related in a sense, but not from a coding perspective. If/when I make zombies affected by the weather, it will be a much simpler system; something like “is it cold enough for zombies to be slow/brittle/frozen/ineffective, Y/N”. Once I get the player side of body temperature working in an intuitive way, I will take a look at modifying zombies as well.
If that is your biggest concern, then awesome 
it can be fixed with (I hope) a handful of lines of code. If you can also think of other interesting ways temperature can be used as a mechanic, I am all ears.
The way you worded it’s raison-d’être is quite true as well; I am adding this to make the game harder. Nothing about it is making the game easier to play. Another reason to figure out how to code an on/off option…
Well some interesting effects would be:
Animals (like bears) hibernate below certain temperatures.
Growing is hindered/aided by temperatures (although we haven’t got growing crops implemented yet)
Water freezes with varying degrees of thickness (thin ice/medium ice/thick ice)
Windows freeze shut
Leaves drop off trees (making forests seethrough)
Engines can fail to start
Warmth affecting healing rate
Warmth affecting hunger rate
Broader strategies that could result from temperature:
“Wintering”, by holing up vs. risking tough temperatures for the weaker enemies
Heatstroke making overexertion a risk in summer
Heating items other than fire (radiators, blowers)
I don’t think you can have a good model for body temperature without considering exertion as well. Right now the system is for a cold-blooded and inert character, which leads to characters freezing at fairly mild temperatures. 45F really isn’t all that cold. Try chopping wood at that temperature and you’ll be sweating in no time. Exertion should be considered for freezing temps and especially hot temps, where exertion could cause over-heating, dehydration, fatigue, and heat stroke.
Probably, to do it right, a body-heat system should also cover exertion, food/calories burned, hydration/sweating-- not just ambient temperature and clothing.
[quote=“Benedict, post:83, topic:304”][quote=“Shoes, post:75, topic:304”]Frostbite is now hard coded not to occur above freezing. Rain is not the reason you are cold in 50F, a combination of unbalanced sleep/hunger/body equalization is the reason you are cold. If you take off all your clothes in the rain, you do not get “more cold” due to being wet. Once wind and humidity exist, that will change.
This implementation started as a simple “I don’t like being able to sleep outdoors in the snow naked”. From there, it just snowballed to where we are now. I like the survival aspect of this game, and the fact that I did not need to layer up made me sad.
Off the top of my head, the impacts on gameplay are :
- Finding a proper place to sleep. The floor is no longer acceptable because of the cold penalties.
- Finding proper clothing. Simply going for pure storage won’t be enough come winter time; you might have to choose between storage and warmth.
- Meth, coke and other stimulants increase body temps (not implemented, but would be a nice draw back to stimulants)
and that’s it :3 Like I said, I am big on survival, so I like the idea of needing to gather supplies to keep warm. It was mentioned too that science labs could be made to have malfunctionning temperatures, so you would need to go into an ice cold lab or a super hot one. Bee hives and ant hills could also be warmer.[/quote]
Hmm. I admit, I’m a little concerned that your main reason for implementing this seems to be to make people find strategies for avoiding it.
Obviously obstacles are important, but for them to be a fun part of a game, there needs to be more than one way of handling them - there need to be interesting and challenging strategies to adopt, and the player should be able to adapt intuitively to the obstacle. As it stands, handling cold basically boils down to “Wear more/fewer clothes” and, as realistic as that may be, realism is not an end in itself.
If the cold system were better implemented, we might start to see strategies evolve from it. Perhaps enemies freeze from the cold, and some players will choose to brave the winter to take advantage of the weakened hulks and wyrms and get some hardcore looting in. Some players might choose to “hibernate” by stockpiling food, water, and fuel, and remaining indoors, avoiding the very real challenge of frostbite, in exchange for a lost season of productivity.
I admit that it’s hard for me to see where you’re going with temperature, and your talk of malfunctioning labs, for example, sounds very promising, and is exactly the kind of direction I’d like to see temperature go.
As it stands though, I’m concerned that the end goal of introducing temperature is “Make players wear warmer clothes”.[/quote]
Impressive.
The general idea of “concern over changes that make the game harder for the sake thereof” is pretty much the same reason I’ve been so vocal over static spawn. Since I haven’t encountered the benefit of a cleared area (leaving aside whether that actually is a benefit), SS is such a change for me.
I’ll freely second you here, Benedict. I wouldn’t mind temperature–even in its current suboptimal state–if it applied to the world (snow/ice) and everyone else involved (Critters with Heat Dependent/insulation/frostbite, etc). Temperature that only affects the PC is arbitrary & capricious.
I agree.
Cold flesh should be less responsive, so zombies slower. Maybe even have them freeze completely at frostbite temp, because they don’t generate heat.
Otherwise it’s annoying and I hate it.
(This makes living longer easier since cold months=slower zeds=easier defeated enemies=town loot)
I don’t imagine being covered up to your finger nails and ears makes it much easier for you to kill the zeds due to all the encumbrance though.
[quote=“KA101, post:87, topic:304”]Impressive.
The general idea of “concern over changes that make the game harder for the sake thereof” is pretty much the same reason I’ve been so vocal over static spawn. Since I haven’t encountered the benefit of a cleared area (leaving aside whether that actually is a benefit), SS is such a change for me.
I’ll freely second you here, Benedict. I wouldn’t mind temperature–even in its current suboptimal state–if it applied to the world (snow/ice) and everyone else involved (Critters with Heat Dependent/insulation/frostbite, etc). Temperature that only affects the PC is arbitrary & capricious.[/quote]
Eh. I know we’ve clashed a couple of times over static spawns, but I do accept that it has its flaws too.
Any change can be bad or good. It just needs to be implemented right.
I’ll be the first to admit that SS needs a big overhaul for it to be a worthwhile change to the otherwise excellent game that is cataclysm.
When my commits get pulled, body temperature will be functionning a lot more as you should expect! I fixed bugs you guys mentioned, and others you didn’t 
I also added more information, take a look :
The @ menu’s warmth values are colored to let you know if you will be cold or not, and on the main screen, your torso is reported, as well as your coldest or hottest body part.
One feature I added, which makes testing a breeze, is that losing HP will cause a loss of body temperature too!
edit : due to clutter, I removed the “torso: blah bodypart: blah” text, and just have the same test that was there before, but tracking the coldest/hottest body parts instead of only the torso
Looks like a lot of progress in the past month. Thanks for keeping at it-- I look forward to .4!
It is SPRING.
It’s also 53 degrees out.
And I am on fire,
and “Dead Tired”
and overdosing on sleeping pills
AND I CAN’T SLEEP BECAUSE IT IS TOO COLD.
Whatever you do in the next patch, make winter cold, not summer.
What were you wearing? I will also look into the sleeping pills thing, that should totally override being cold.
Nothing at all ;3
If you want to condense it, you could list the body part’s name and have temperature indicated solely by the text’s color. And you could also remove any green/comfortable status; players will mostly be interested if things are out of whack.
And for reference, I live in a place where it is actively 46-50 degrees Fahrenheit and can endure being out there in bare-bones clothes for quite a while. Especially in the back of a heated restaurant in a bed.
But I don’t sleep with hardly any clothes on IRL, and I don’t get cold whatsoever.
Please, oh PLEASE, make sleeping in bags/beds/cots increase your warmth a lot. I am actually laying in bed, it’s quite cold out (I’d estimate 50 degrees) and I am sweating. I’m not completely unable to go to sleep because it’s so cold.
[Being indoors should heat you up, depending on the building]
[Being in bed should heat you up]
[Heatpacks should ACTUALLY be able to be used to warm you up]
[Doing extremely intensive tasks should keep your temperature moderate]
Yes, I know this sounds like a lot of things that make you warmer, but there are a LOT of things that make you warm in real life, not sleeping in five layers of clothing. I get that it’s cold out, but I have proper bedding and fairly good heating indoors. Feel free to give me frostbite for sleeping outside without clothes, but the whole “hunker down for winter” thing kind of falls flat on its face here.
I think what I will do, as Kevin suggested, is to list the most extreme body part, and in brackets list if its temp is rising or falling. So it would say something like “Cold (rising)” to let you know that you are at worse cold, and it is getting better. Something quick like that; the @ menu would still show more detail.
[quote=“kilozombie, post:97, topic:304”]And for reference, I live in a place where it is actively 46-50 degrees Fahrenheit and can endure being out there in bare-bones clothes for quite a while. Especially in the back of a heated restaurant in a bed.
But I don’t sleep with hardly any clothes on IRL, and I don’t get cold whatsoever.
Please, oh PLEASE, make sleeping in bags/beds/cots increase your warmth a lot. I am actually laying in bed, it’s quite cold out (I’d estimate 50 degrees) and I am sweating. I’m not completely unable to go to sleep because it’s so cold.
[Being indoors should heat you up, depending on the building]
[Being in bed should heat you up]
[Heatpacks should ACTUALLY be able to be used to warm you up]
[Doing extremely intensive tasks should keep your temperature moderate]
Yes, I know this sounds like a lot of things that make you warmer, but there are a LOT of things that make you warm in real life, not sleeping in five layers of clothing. I get that it’s cold out, but I have proper bedding and fairly good heating indoors. Feel free to give me frostbite for sleeping outside without clothes, but the whole “hunker down for winter” thing kind of falls flat on its face here.[/quote]
There is no power nor humidity/wind, so being indoors or outdoors makes no difference. Being out in the sun or clear weather helps a bit. Beds do infact warm you up. Beds > makeshift bed > cot/car seat > rollmat > ground. You lose as much heat on the ground as you gain in bed. For reference, sleeping in a bed while cold will bring you to comfortable.
Heatpacks weren’t added by me, and are relatively new. I think it would be neat for heatpacks to provide warmth. We’ll see how that can be coded.
Doing tasks is something that is sorely lacking, and the code doesn’t differentiate between reading and building a house. Unfortunately, your body temps will be the same while doing something like that. It is always on my radar, though.
In 50F, wearing what I consider bare bones should keep you comfortable, assuming you are not tired or hungry. 10 warmth, provided by a t-shirt, should be enough (for torso). Again, if you could list the clothing you were wearing, or provide an @ menu screen shot, that would allow me to see if the problem is with my code, or with communication to the player. Also keep in mind, being cold has no penalties, except for torso and legs I believe.
Not much posted in changelog, but temperatures are much better in the newest version. Also, seems like special zombies near starting houses have been reduced which is a blessing.
At daytime (52 degrees average) I can’t wear bare bones clothes (the ones you start with) I get sluggishly cold and my stats are all hampered.
Apparently the ~4 degrees colder that night is actually makes me Very Cold consistently, and to even SLEEP I need to put on a suit, hoodie and another pair of pants. I’m even in a cot, so…