Temperature effects are way to ridiculous

[Weresmilodon]

I’ve read what i could out of that article. Not my area of expertise at all, but from what i can see, there is nothing absolute in there. Merely assumptions and examples, nothing factual. You should probably take the numbers used with a few tablespoons of salt.

Furthermore, due to the severe problems currently caused by temperature, i would strongly suggest that an option to turn temperate off be implemented. The game is close to unplayable in it’s current state.

[Sep]

is that there’s a “whole body warmth average” mechanic at play, but the game does not

so yeah, ski-goggles equals win. right

[Shoes]

I agree about an option to turn off temperature. I looked briefly at how the options worked, but it was over my head.

I will do some specific case testing when I have time, because even on linux, wearing a t-shirt in 60F I eventually became frostbitten. Over time, I’ve added more and more sources of cold, and I think they are causing too big of an impact. Hungry and fatigue are also sources of cold.

For those who want to play, I would suggest layering up the torso first. Like I said, in a previous game I was wearing a fitted hoodie and trenchcoat, and never once became cold. Train your tailoring up or find these warmer articles of clothing.

Weresmilodon : I think the source I posted is a good balance between academic and accessible. I will stick to the numbers there, but as I said above I think the problem lies in 1) too many sources of cold other than temperature, and 2) torso is unrealistically important and difficult to keep warm, and may loose too much heat to other limbs. I would rather buff my warmth calculation than nerf sourced body temperature thresholds.

pingpong : I checked your game; being as wet as you were, your warmth was being cut in half. -53 wet morale == 47% effective warmth. When I went inside and dried off, I was no longer cold. I think you were suffering from the same symptoms as those above.

[Sep]

Shoes, can you please have the @ (warmth) #s change in color to give an indication of how far the equipped values are from ideal.

… or give some other kind of feedback what the ‘total’ is and how that one’s ‘temperature armor’ matches up against the temperature??

information hiding is not good. maybe replace the @ (warmth) #s with the ‘temperature degree’ that this section is comfortable in. then we can add the ‘warmth’ numbers ourselves to derive some fudge factor like ‘oh 10 warmth means its good for x degrees heat’ or something like that.

its terribly opaque right now.

also ski-goggles.

[Vorpal2]

The main thing I’m finding strange is the waking up from cold - it’s just annoying, because when I wake up I have no cold parts or anything. Blankets would really help with that I think.

Also, I have the internal climate control now, and even when not powered, I think it’s still working. Outside in -4C and I’m fine.

[xara]

-53 wet morale == 47% effective warmth.

Wait, what? Is that specific to being wet only? I hope that doesn’t mean any negative morale causes ineffectiveness of warmth

That calculation like that doesn’t really make sense, anyhow. Wet in 70F weather is a hell of a lot different than wet in 40F. It should amplify cold already existing, not cause more cold. What I mean is, currently (it seems) if you are comfortable and get wet, losing half your warmth is a huge loss. If you are miserably cold already, you have much less to lose. This is backwards. Getting wet in warm weather should have little effect at all. Getting wet at near-freezing temps already should be potentially fatal.

[Shoes]

Sep : I will bring that idea up with other devs. I would definitely want transparency, but at the same time too much information breaks immersion. (For example, body temperature is measured from 0 to 10 000, showing that value every tick would ruin immersion).

Vorpal : I had adding sleeping aids in my mind; perhaps I should move that up my priority list!

xara : only being wet reduces warmth effectiveness. Losing warmth effectiveness is the same thing as amplifying cold; you are more cold due to being wet. If you are soaked to the bone and lose all your warmth (you can’t get that wet, it’s capped at 60), aka naked, you would only become cold at 60.8F barring hunger, thirst, etc. If you are miserably cold and you get wet, you become miserably colder.

When I have time to bug hunt, I will look for the two things mentions in my previous post.

[xara]

That’s not what I mean. Rain on a warm day when you are wearing lots of +warmth stuff would have little IRL effect apart from making your undies ride up and your clothes heavier. But here it has the biggest penalty because you are losing half your warmth when you have the most of it, in the weather where it makes the least sense. But if my char runs around naked in 50F weather, I will already be cold with little “warmth” left to lose - the wet penalty doesn’t have as much of an effect when in truth it should be greater due to the lethality.

[geldonyetich]

I really don’t like the idea that “you’re getting frostbite in 56F weather because you were wet so your warmth is getting cut in half.” Frostbite IRL requires it be at least freezing (32F, 0C). Getting wet shouldn’t cause freezing.

There should probably be a cap in place that prevents body temperature from getting any colder than the atmospheric temperature. No, “Something happened so, for you, it’s colder than it is” rules. That’s just not how temperature works.

[Greiger]

I think there was already a commit added after release that basically says that there is no frostbite over freezing anymore regardless of how wet you are.

I do like wetness having an effect on how cold you are though. I think it only uses the wetness morale value because that’s really the only way the game has to gauge how wet you are. If you are drenched, it lowers your temperature more than taking 2 steps between a car and a house. It certainly does not get changed by other morale values. I had a morale of -1100 once and I was still comfortable.

Moral of this story is to stay the hell out of the rain when it’s cold out.

[geldonyetich]

I, too, like the idea that wetness has an influence. However, as far as the game design mechanics are concerned, I think such influences should only affect the effective warmth of your clothes and not actually make things colder than they are.

Maybe the mechanic should factor in the body’s natural warmth, which would generate 0-30 points all on its own depending on various influences such as how recently the character ate, how physically active they are, and other influences (such being wetness), before clothing even gets involved.

This should be well-communicated as an actual warmth buff/debuff somewhere on the character sheet.

This is still fairly early into temperature’s implementation, I really was not expecting perfection, but if there’s any time these concerns would be coming up it would be now.

[Benedict]

I have to ask: What is temperature actually adding to gameplay?

It can be as well tuned and coded as possible, and balanced so perfectly that real life starts to look inadequate by comparison, but it still boils down to a mechanic which forces players to “find clothes or be cold”.

Is there either:

a) Some way we can give temperature a greater effect on gameplay (freezing water, slowing Zs/other enemies down significantly, affecting plant growth)
b) Some way we can broaden the range of acceptable responses to it, so that they are more interesting, and less frustrating than “wearing more clothes”.

I’d like to hear from Shoes about this. I’m more than willing to believe there are awesome ways to implement temperature into cataclysm as a fun and engaging part of the game, but I’ve not heard what those might be.

[teh_sam]

On the topic of temperature affecting zeds, if the ambient temperature was at or below freezing, and assuming zeds don’t generate any body heat (is there canon on this?) then the water in their tissues ought to begin to slush and freeze which should slow them down noticeably.

I would think this would be a relatively easy effect to implement, with temperature below freezing reducing all zed move speed by some appropriate amount.

Edit: Perhaps even baddies of some sort prefer (are buffed by) cold?

[Benedict]

They’re not animated by muscle tissue, so I’m not sure that would work (there’s no cannon on how the slime is affected by that)

[Shoes]

Frostbite is now hard coded not to occur above freezing. Rain is not the reason you are cold in 50F, a combination of unbalanced sleep/hunger/body equalization is the reason you are cold. If you take off all your clothes in the rain, you do not get “more cold” due to being wet. Once wind and humidity exist, that will change.

This implementation started as a simple “I don’t like being able to sleep outdoors in the snow naked”. From there, it just snowballed to where we are now. I like the survival aspect of this game, and the fact that I did not need to layer up made me sad.

Off the top of my head, the impacts on gameplay are :

• Finding a proper place to sleep. The floor is no longer acceptable because of the cold penalties.
• Finding proper clothing. Simply going for pure storage won’t be enough come winter time; you might have to choose between storage and warmth.
• Meth, coke and other stimulants increase body temps (not implemented, but would be a nice draw back to stimulants)

and that’s it :3 Like I said, I am big on survival, so I like the idea of needing to gather supplies to keep warm. It was mentioned too that science labs could be made to have malfunctionning temperatures, so you would need to go into an ice cold lab or a super hot one. Bee hives and ant hills could also be warmer.

[pingpong]

Shoes, should I email you a different save then for .3 prerelease? I’m inside my evac shelter, not wet(I think, I’d have to check since I changed chars), and my body parts are continuously becoming hardened. I think maybe you forgot to remove the effect wetness has on the temperature or something, as all of my body parts were Cold! while stuff like my feet still had winter boots on and I wasn’t wet.

If I could get a new build where I don’t have to worry about all of my limbs getting more and more frostbitten on day 2 at >40F I’d be glad. (I might try compiling myself)

Also, is it normal for it to rain almost 3 days in a row and temperatures to drop to 40F in spring? The cold/wetness wouldn’t be such an issue if it wasn’t raining for more than a day straight.

[Shoes]

Um, not yet. I have some ideas to follow through on.

I use cygwin in windows to compile in a linux environement. If you use cygwin, you can get the bleeding edge releases and fixes! It already has frostbite fixes, and will have my temp fixes as soon as they are ready

edit: an “oh” moment : I, for some reason, thougth my body temperature equalization code stopped calculating after a while or something… but it doesn’t. Your body will be as cold as your coldest body part, pretty much. Sooo… I think that’s what’s wrong. I still want cold torso to bring down your arms, but … only a little bit.

[KA101]

[quote=“pingpong, post:76, topic:304”]
Also, is it normal for it to rain almost 3 days in a row and temperatures to drop to 40F in spring? The cold/wetness wouldn’t be such an issue if it wasn’t raining for more than a day straight.[/quote]
IRL, yeah, where I am (not that far southwest from New England) it’s been snowing off/on and around the 40F mark since the vernal equinox. Figure about a week or so.

But then IRL seasons are roughly 90 days or so: a Cata-season is 15 days. 90/15=6. So a day in Cata comes out to roughly a week of real time, in terms of seasonal change & weather. In that sense, raining for three weeks straight would be a fairly impressive piece of news.

Requiring all living critters to comply with temperature seems fair, and would provide players with examples to follow regarding ways to stay warm.

(Edited to fix cardinal direction–KA101)

[Sep]

just noticed that you get hot when you dive naked in the spring.

not to make a fuzz, perhaps it could be ‘comfortable’ in spring and fall, ‘warm’ in the summer and ‘cold’ in the winter (without regard to anything else, that’s diving, not swimming.)

[Shoes]

[quote=“Sep, post:79, topic:304”]just noticed that you get hot when you dive naked in the spring.

not to make a fuzz, perhaps it could be ‘comfortable’ in spring and fall, ‘warm’ in the summer and ‘cold’ in the winter (without regard to anything else, that’s diving, not swimming.)[/quote]

Yeah, I completly ignored swimming/diving in regards to body temperature. I want to make the player wet, but the only measure of wetness is the morale penalty. Also, you should be happy to be in the rain/water when hot, and upset when cold. So… for now, um. Yeah, getting in water makes no sense. I am not too worried, because I think water is an under developped mechanic.