The most annoying thing I’ve found is waking up from the cold, but still being comfortable, at generally 15c with warm clothes on.
I don’t know much about the cold though, since I’m Australian and it got to around 48C this summer. Anything below 30 and I’m fine with a sweater or long shirt and trenchcoat, if a bit smelly. Every degree above about 35 I start to lose a point of int.
When I get home, I could cite my source, but those numbers are straight outta science. Keep in mind being naked in 31C reading a book and being naked in 31C running a marathon are not the same in reality, but in cataclysm they are unforunately. Also keep in mind being “cold”, for the most part, has no penalty; it is more of a warning.
Tripsky : the game doesn’t so much “change” temperature when underground, it will just hover towards a higher normal. So when you move from the cold to underground, it will still be cold, and slowly climb up.
Vorpal2 : the GUI for the cold/comf/hot thing only takes into torso temps only, whereas sleep will factor in any bodypart. Perhaps that could looked at as well.
Please do. Those numbers seems very far off to me.
The comment i made above is with the assumption that i would be wearing a t-shirt and shorts, sitting in a chair, and doing absolutely nothing i can’t avoid. I start sweating at around 23C, 26C is almost unbearable. 30? Forget doing anything.
For reference sake, 20C is international industry standard in manufacturing. Factories/workshops and other places where manufacturing and/or assembly takes place will, when possible, keep the temperature (and consequently materials) at exactly 20C. Workclothes are usually jeans or protective pants and t-shirt as well as some kind of light protective jacket. These jackets are protective only, you can blow straight though them using your mouth without resistance, so they provide/preserve no heat.
Essentially, you’re working in light airy clothes in 20C. While some of the work is heavy, most is (in my profession) not. Not to the point of warming you, at least.
If i were to tweak those numbers, i would say a naked person at 25C, and a lightly clothed one at 20C.
Like i said, temperatures are highly subjective, and can vary a lot depending on what you’re used to. This is why i want to see that source. I can’t imagine it being something global. It almost has to be regional.
To take a slightly different tack on this debate:
Does it really matter about what the most people think is a normal temperature to feel cold? Surely what matters is how it affects gameplay, and how often we want our characters to feel cold.
As it stands, I think it’s somewhat over the top. That seems to be a general consensus amongst players, too.
Given that Cataclysm isn’t actually set in any specific location (there’s only vague geographical information like wolves, cougars and mosquito-bearing swamps all coexisting in one environment) we can keep whatever vaguely realistic set of temperatures we want, and just make sure they vary within a range that encourages the right amount of clothing depending on the season, or whatever.
It’s not actually unknown were Cataclysm takes place.
Quote from Readme:“Cataclysm is a post-apocalyptic roguelike, set in the countryside of New England
after a devastating plague of monsters and zombies.”
It’s not mentioned in-game, though. And the setting is nondescript enough not to matter.
EDIT: Fuck’s sake. I just died for no apparent reason, upon hitting “sleep”. I had full health, and the only apparently problem was frostbite.
Please tell me it isn’t possible to die of cold >_<
I don’t actually care that much. I wasn’t interested until the actual numbers were pulled up, and i saw that they seemed to be quite a bit off where they should be. It got me interested in that article too, so…
Personally, I’m more of a mind that the heat system should be more like the one in UnReal World, if possible. Not sure how much work that would be though.
Another possibility is replacing the actual temperature with a simpler numbering system (0=frozen, 1=very cold, 2=cold…), probably with a float value so you can be in between numbers and gradually change. I’m not sure how much temperature actually is used by the game, or how much it is planned to be used. Actual temperature might be needed by some functions.
But regardless, as long as actual temperature is used, there are going to be disagreements. There is no range that applies to everyone, there are always going to be people who thinks it’s too hot or cold based on personal experience. The only way to do something about that is to implement an actual factual place, with actual factual temperature.
59%. frost nip and losing sensation in hands every move.
I have a fur hat on, warmth of 80, and my head is still cold
also. I’m carrying several sheets in inventory. seems like I would use them when sleeping to keep warm.
could definitely use some balancing, the ability to use blankets/sheets in inventory and some better explanation of how cold mechanics work (which I realize is prob difficult as its still being flushed out)
thanks for all the work devs!
I can see temperature still has some tweaking to do.
[ul][]One of the things going on is that the game communicates your individual body parts are cold. Sometimes, this does not seem to make any sense, like I could be wearing reasonably warm jeans in a mild day (56F) and I’ve still rather cold legs. Then, I put clothing on unrelated areas (like my torso and head) and my cold legs go away. It seems what’s actually going on is that there’s a “whole body warmth average” mechanic at play, but the game does not communicate that properly.
[]Right now, it’s a cool-but-tolerable 55F in the basement of my evac shelter, my character feels “comfortable,” with 20-30 warmth on every part of my body but my eyes, and yet I’m repeatedly being woken up by the cold when I try to sleep on this cot. Clearly, there’s something that needs adjusting in the sleeping code.
[]Being indoors vrs outdoors should probably apply a modifier on temperature tolerance, too: it’s true that it’s possible for it to be just as cold inside as it is on the outside, but there’s something to be said about not being out in the wind and rain. This is why some survival guides talk about making shelter, even if it’s in a snow pit under a tree or made out of sticks and debris.
[]Others have mentioned that there should probably be a higher tolerance to being cold when you’re engaged in physical activity. That’s not a subjective observation, it’s the reason why it’s a survival tip to stay moving when fighting the cold. In game terms, recent physical activity could apply as another bonus against cold.
[*]Another thing that should be considered is there is a difference between being “comfortable” and “impaired.” There should be a larger comfort range where you’re not comfortable, but you’re not enduring debuffs, either. The main benefit of being “comfortable” would be related to one’s mood.[/ul]
Maybe, overall, I’m looking to nerf the affect of temperature a bit. But, you know, the body does generate a considerable amount of metabolic heat, it’s core to life itself, our ancestors have had to endure a great deal of cold, and a few thousand years of civilization really hasn’t changed that bodies have a high amount of tolerance to a balmy day - things have to get into the low 40-degrees F (or involve a lot of wind chill) before it really bothers us IRL. Right now, the way Cataclysm presents heat, our characters might as well be half-zombie for their lack of common warm-blooded creature cold resistance.
Weresmilodon :
Source : http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~bsapplec/heat.htm
(a) When the metabolic rate is about 1 met (58.2 W/m2) , there is no body cooling nor body heating at an operative temperature of about 25.5 oC for light clothed person and 31 oC for nude person.
“Lightly clothed” person could be debatable, but I took that as a t-shirt, so 10 warmth in game.
Benedict : The effects and penalties are what I want, so those I won’t change without persuasion. However, changing the warmth mechanics of clothing is something I would change to make sure those penalties are applied at a sensible time. Results are the same : a more intuitive system.
Also, I think frostbite (which occurs during sleep, as per a bug/oversight) is the culprit : it is supposed to reduce max health until it is removed. I don’t mind the player loosing limbs to frostbite (hands == arms, hp wise), but loosing your face means death… I am not sure how I feel about that.
macro : Sleeping on the ground without a bed/rollmat/etc is bad, but 80 warmth to the head should be enough :x if your torso was bare, or close to, that could explain the loss of heat, as the torso and face would have absorbed some.
geldonyetich : Sleeping on a cot will cause heat loss, but only 1/4 that of sleeping on the floor. Only your torso is considered for waking you up due to cold; if you are very cold, you awake, and if you are less than optimal, there is a chance of waking up. It is small though, I think I calculated like 13% chance to wake up of you’re flat out cold while asleep over an eight hour period. If that seems to high, I can refine the calculation
Indoors/outdoors only plays a role if it is sunny or clear out. Other than that, with no humidity or wind model, there is no difference between inside and outside.
Being “engaged in physical activity” is vague and not recognized in the code. I would have to add flags to specific activities, if that’s possible. However, I agree that it is integral. I don’t want to add flags everywhere because eventually we will (I think) code walking/running/sprinting.
As for your last comment, “cold” hardly imparts any debuffs. Legs and torso get a -2 speed each, and torso gets a -1 dex. That’s it.
If you guys could put up some saved games or screenshots for me to look at, I am really curious as to how you guys are getting so screwed by the temperature system ;p I played a character for 14 in game days and was never cold. It got to the point where I removed clothing to make sure I could even get cold… Hell, I got hot in the sun!
Also note, eyes aren’t considered. I take the mouth as the face. I would be happy to hear about some suggestions on how to improve communication with the player (regarding mouth being face, and regarding body temperature equalization).
Keep ‘er comin’ :3
[quote=“Shoes, post:50, topic:304”]Weresmilodon :
Source : http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~bsapplec/heat.ht[/quote]
Thanks, but unfortunately;
Page Not Found!
The page is either relocated or does not exist on our server.
You wouldn’t happen to be a student or teacher there, would you? Might be an internal page.
I haven’t read the rest of your post yet, this was my last check in before bed.
My bad! Forgot an m at the end of the address. Fixed : http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~bsapplec/heat.htm.
I’ve been complaining over in the bugs; I do have a backed up directory for anyone that wants to see it.
My character every night has been getting cold everything, even when I have two pairs of pants on, two shirts and a kevlar jacket, lab coat, three masks and an army helmet on and I get like blisters x6 and my speed dropped to 1 a few turns, and I was getting 2-3 “your hands are getting numb” messages per turn for many turns in a row. Winter boots don’t even keep my feet cold, while I get frostnip’d on two body parts while 46F in a shelter.
I wouldn’t mind the temperature if it worked, but when it means I’ll need 20 encumberment per limb in winter, something’s amiss.
Do you want to zip that up and maybe email it to me? the_original_lovok at hotmail. I will take a look to see why funkyness is going on.
Sent, hope it’s meaningful and not me doing something wrong.
YOU DO NOT GET FROSTBITE AT 46F OK
Re waking from cold: how often is that checked? A 13% chance that gets checked once per hour seems pretty likely to hit over 8 hours of sleep. 10 times and I’d bet it to happen at least once. More than that, and it’s approaching the “sure thing” category.
As it stands, any version with temperature active is a no-go for me given all these problems. Sorry, Shoes.
(There’s room for traits here: clearly define a comfortable temperature range, then 1-2 points ought to be able to buy an additional 5-10 degrees on each end for Temperature Tolerance. Negative trait would be getting warm/cold easily, so decreasing one boundary.)
Yeah, that really does seem a bit extreme, to be getting frostbite at 46F, but even so… Dude! You’ve got ZERO WARMTH on your body, arms, and legs! You might as well be naked except for a hat, some socks, and a pair of mittens. It’s no wonder your guy’s cold.
If I eat my shirt will i stay warm?
By that I mean does the internal furnace produce heat for the player?
I wonder… how many people are playing on linux and getting this problem?
I think it might be a windows this (edit: it’s not), because my characer just got cold hands in 64F wearing 40 warmth. Lol, new record? 64F and just got frostbite.
Also, another note: the underlying problem may be you guys aren’t protecting your torso enough / the body equalization code is too harsh.