BTW, what’s actually happening is these modifications impose a minimum encumbrance value on the clothing. If their starting value is very low (e.g. underclothes), this can easily be 2-3x the original value.
FYI the change that Random_dragon has proposed will almost certainly just tell you that armoring your loincloth will have no effect, since it will reduce the added protection if the encumbrance of the item is low, and if the encumbrance is low enough, it should scale it down to 0, and then it should let you know it will have no effect instead of wasting your time.
It probably should have it so that the effects can scale down to either no gain, or an absolute bare minimum.
Either way, the current minimum encumbrance penalty is likely a large part of the issue.
What’s the ratio between minimum protection gain and minimum encumbrance gain anyway? If we shifted it so that minimum-ENC numbers still gained a minimum of 1/1 protection, how much encumbrance would they gain if it retained that ratio?
[quote=“Random_dragon, post:15, topic:10931”]So, I’ll go ahead and summarize a suggestion I made ages ago that fits in with your issue pertaining to how much encumbrance gets added onto low-encumbrance items.
Reduce the advantages AND disadvantages of enhancing clothing, depending on how low the encumbrance is. Basically, my assumption here is that it makes more sense for the player to only enhance such an item as much as would be COMFORTABLE to add, whereas the current system implies adding as much as the item could possibly support.
If I recall, Kevin kinda responded to the idea somewhat positively, but the idea was overall forgotten about, likely because no one was able to suggest concrete math for how to handle that idea.
Arguably that’s ‘‘reinforcing’’ right now, as in you’re adding rags/leather to your clothing to make it extra sturdy/as sturdy as possible without compromising wearability.
Then upgrading would be straight up adding as much as you physically can period, not thinking about wearability and simply wanting the item to be as protective as possible by simply filling every nook with leather/kevlar/wool/fur/nomex etc.
Right now upgrading is in that weird little place where the idea of it is great, but the actual function (other than a few very situational… situations) is not really there. It makes too much sense to keep it in and not remove it, but it also makes too little sense to buff it and arguably make it OP.
On the other hand you can make it more complicated and convoluted and have ‘upgraded’ clothing turn into their own items (which you can’t make through the & menu) where you upgrade a balaclava with leather and make it a leather balaclava, but again, that’s convoluted and arguably it wouldn’t fix the issue either.
Perhaps not the main point of this thread, but Im thinking zero-encumbrance items are for the most part op. Especially this hydration tank that holds booze for me.
[quote=“Random_dragon, post:25, topic:10931”]Depends on hat it is you’re wearing. I don’t care much for the hydration pack because then it’ll conflict with my backpack.
Most of the 0-ENC items I wind up wearing are just warmth items anyway. ;w;[/quote]
The layering penalty for a backpack and hydration pack isn’t too bad, it seems. Testing it, started with 9 encumbrance; added the hydration pack, encumbrance is still the same. Added a backpack which has 10 encumbrance, and the result is 19+2, 2 being the penalty for the conflicting layers. Seems like they nerfed the encumbrance penalty, since I recall on experimental months ago the penalty would be 10.
The nerfed encumbrance penalty helps a lot, yeah. I still instinctively get leery of having any of it though. Especially since half the time it’s just enough to nudge me up an encumbrance level. ;_;
Guess that makes sense, yeah. So ensuring that low-ENC items get a certain minimum protection gain AND encumbrance gain would likely be part of the general fixes alongside setting a minimum encumbrance.
Finally able to come back and respond. Thanks for everyone here jumping in with their comments, I appreciate the time taken =)
That said I’m also glad to see the discussion still open as I’m not always able to have an internet connection to to being damn poor =/
Topic at hand:
I agree with having encumbrance. But not sure about getting rid of the ZERO encumbrance items on thing that do not impede movement. Like, a normal pair of socks(Fits) should be as comfortable and flexible as wearing nothing. Now my problem is the value of encumbrance when upgrading. I agree with a few points made here about having the upgrade be pointless if the upgrade is lacking in a way to provide protection, thus if enough layers are applied it is bulky -->encumbrance is high.
But I think in this case the balance is needed to be up to the player. I think if items such as the under garments can be strengthen and the protection stays low. Then allow for upgrades to only give small armor values of like 1-2 points. It would keep the encumbrance low enough to be mobile without impeding movement and allow me to still using my tailoring skill to practice. To be honest that is how I practice tailoring before I gain enough skill for bigger garments. I just find a safe spot an sew a few crap items and I feel satisfied with the minimal armor gain.
But it is still a very big part of my gain play style, I almost never read books in game.
One caveat I should like to mention though. Leather doesn’t stop bullets. Sufficient layers of kevlar may/does do so(pending caliber). I was pondering last night why A) how I’m able to cut kevalr with anything less than bolt cutters or similar tool and B) why leather causes more encumbrance than kevlar?
…dammit, I thought of another small detail(sorry >_>) Fur is a fur pelt right? Not just a lump of fur/hair? So because leather is the same thing but WITHOUT fur/hair, than leather and fur encumbrance values should be swapped. Fur pelt is just a hairy piece pf leather after all.
Example:
Wool —>Leather —>Fur —> Kevlar
I don’t expect 100% realism, but this game is made better by it’s details. Oh and just found the .json files I need to adjust weight to add more weight for sake of realism to my gear. Yay! for heavy realism as an option now lol XD
(any future plan to allow for changes to values on tailoring?)
Far as I can recall, fur in-game tends toward protection identical to leather, which a general trend towards higher warmth and high encumbrance (which, unlike protection values, is entirely garment-dependent and thus can be arbitrary if need be).
If you’ve ever handled kevlar you’d understand why. Kevlar can be cut with a pair of decent fabric scissors (due to it’s low compressive strength), is far more flexible and lightweight than leather of similar density, and is designed in such a way as to provide maximum protection with minimal layers. Leather does stop bullets, up to a certain caliber, but leather sufficient to provide protection from rounds in excess of .25 (or low power 9mm) would be extremely bulky. Go check out some motorcycle leathers sometime, they’re hardly lightweight or super flexible.
The idea behind adding leather reinforcement to gear is not adding thin, designer style leather like you’d find in an off the shelf jacket or pair of pants, but rather protection on par with welding gauntlets or butcher (or if you’re so inclined blacksmith) aprons. What you see when you look at a lot of kevlar protective gear is kevlar reinforced with an epoxy which gives it the rigid structure seen in police and military gear. In addition heavier protection (classed as III and IV by the National Institute of Justice) is provided by polyethlene, ceramic, or even steel plates inserted into a kevlar carrier (we see this already in game as MBR vests). Since kevlar is a tightly woven plastic fiber with extremely high tensile strength it can provide protection with minimal weight and loss of mobility.
If you’ve ever handled kevlar you’d understand why. Kevlar can be cut with a pair of decent fabric scissors (due to it’s low compressive strength), is far more flexible and lightweight than leather of similar density, and is designed in such a way as to provide maximum protection with minimal layers. Leather does stop bullets, up to a certain caliber, but leather sufficient to provide protection from rounds in excess of .25 (or low power 9mm) would be extremely bulky. Go check out some motorcycle leathers sometime, they’re hardly lightweight or super flexible.
The idea behind adding leather reinforcement to gear is not adding thin, designer style leather like you’d find in an off the shelf jacket or pair of pants, but rather protection on par with welding gauntlets or butcher (or if you’re so inclined blacksmith) aprons. What you see when you look at a lot of kevlar protective gear is kevlar reinforced with an epoxy which gives it the rigid structure seen in police and military gear. In addition heavier protection (classed as III and IV by the National Institute of Justice) is provided by polyethlene, ceramic, or even steel plates inserted into a kevlar carrier (we see this already in game as MBR vests). Since kevlar is a tightly woven plastic fiber with extremely high tensile strength it can provide protection with minimal weight and loss of mobility.[/quote]
I would agree with you here EXCcccceeppppttttt…no…While a sheet of kevlar is maleable and perhaps relatively easy to cut, in game however are prefabricated items like a vest. It takes a machine to stitch kevlar and unless you used 15 or so sheets of it, it doesn’t much against stabbing. Prisons last I hear were in the market for something that could prevent guards getting shanked and kevlar wasn’t doing the job. There is a chemical solution however that when added to a standard vest, it can take a ice pick up to a few hundred pounds, because the chemical(i forgot the name) seeps into the gaps of the kevlar sheets and tightens when a sharp point is applied.
Also as you point out in regard to leather. Leather in game is higher than kevlar annnnnnnd no…it won’t stop a standard packed bullet(dangerous even if it were half packed birdshot at 10 feet). You can’t convince me here, because half the sources of leather are from prefab garments, like pants and boots etc. While you can hunt animals for skin and make your own leather. It will still not be as good as those biker jackets. I live near a Harley shop and a leather shop(they don’t make stuff, but sell 100’s of items). Sooo…yes, actually it is think malleable designer leather. The real problem I see is not that you are wrong. In fact, I can agree with some biker jackets. But the real problem I’m seeing now is there are 2 types of leather in play, under 1 umbrella. Standard thin and heavy duty hard stuff. I’m vexed now…because I doubt the devs are going to add this distinction =/
(awesome though this would be…naturally solving this entire argument)
While many prefab leather garments are thin. There are indeed some seriously heavy duty leather garments that could be legit armor. So unless we ask the devs to make the distinction in game. I doubt either side will be happy.
Feel free to consider this an polite request of the devs for thin and hard leather distinction. I’d like it if other people would ask for this too. Since there are tons of thin leather items in game and hard leather items too.
We should vote on this: Nope
The project isn’t a democracy, no number of "me too"s or votes is going to change something we’ve decided on, however we listen to peoples opinions and arguments for or against things. A good reason to make a change has more impact than any number of votes.
I’m not saying your idea is bad, more differentiation within the various leather items probably is called for, but votes are irrelevant, please don’t solicit them.
Personally it seems more like the “thicker leather” thing would be a flavor detail tied to the item used to make it, if anything. As it is now, the same leather patches can be used to make all the different leather items.
One could assume that you wind up using layers of said patches to thicken the end product, though I’m unsure whether or not it’d be less effective compared to just starting with leather of the same thickness to begin with.
Though it would arguably be worth leaving it abstracted away. As it stands you can already make most items out of patchwork with either having to worry about everything unraveling and fraying like it ought to, so leather patches not having variable thickness is hardly the biggest Acceptable Break From Reality as it pertains to tailoring. o3o
But please consider the tailoring upgrade option of soft leather being different from hard leather. Seems as you point out, that half the work is already in the game(material thickness).
If it makes any difference to any ones opinion, I can attest that soft leather DOES prevent minor cuts and bash/abrasion damage. On the bright side, my pants, jacket and hats have saved me from such minor damage on several occasions.
Rather curious of what you and the other devs think of fur pelts, as fur is hairy leather. Regarding my posts previously…unless random draggy covered this?
I got a true story that may not matter but is interesting. My uncle works in construction. Some fellow worker came around a corner at a different level of the building and nearly cut my uncles face open with a shank of metal. Had my uncle not had his bushy beard, that the metal glanced off of, he would have required stitches and other surgery. May not be a great example lol but little similar =)
If you’ve ever handled kevlar you’d understand why. Kevlar can be cut with a pair of decent fabric scissors (due to it’s low compressive strength), is far more flexible and lightweight than leather of similar density, and is designed in such a way as to provide maximum protection with minimal layers. Leather does stop bullets, up to a certain caliber, but leather sufficient to provide protection from rounds in excess of .25 (or low power 9mm) would be extremely bulky. Go check out some motorcycle leathers sometime, they’re hardly lightweight or super flexible.
The idea behind adding leather reinforcement to gear is not adding thin, designer style leather like you’d find in an off the shelf jacket or pair of pants, but rather protection on par with welding gauntlets or butcher (or if you’re so inclined blacksmith) aprons. What you see when you look at a lot of kevlar protective gear is kevlar reinforced with an epoxy which gives it the rigid structure seen in police and military gear. In addition heavier protection (classed as III and IV by the National Institute of Justice) is provided by polyethlene, ceramic, or even steel plates inserted into a kevlar carrier (we see this already in game as MBR vests). Since kevlar is a tightly woven plastic fiber with extremely high tensile strength it can provide protection with minimal weight and loss of mobility.[/quote]
I would agree with you here EXCcccceeppppttttt…no…While a sheet of kevlar is maleable and perhaps relatively easy to cut, in game however are prefabricated items like a vest. It takes a machine to stitch kevlar and unless you used 15 or so sheets of it, it doesn’t much against stabbing. Prisons last I hear were in the market for something that could prevent guards getting shanked and kevlar wasn’t doing the job. There is a chemical solution however that when added to a standard vest, it can take a ice pick up to a few hundred pounds, because the chemical(i forgot the name) seeps into the gaps of the kevlar sheets and tightens when a sharp point is applied.
Also as you point out in regard to leather. Leather in game is higher than kevlar annnnnnnd no…it won’t stop a standard packed bullet(dangerous even if it were half packed birdshot at 10 feet). You can’t convince me here, because half the sources of leather are from prefab garments, like pants and boots etc. While you can hunt animals for skin and make your own leather. It will still not be as good as those biker jackets. I live near a Harley shop and a leather shop(they don’t make stuff, but sell 100’s of items). Sooo…yes, actually it is think malleable designer leather. The real problem I see is not that you are wrong. In fact, I can agree with some biker jackets. But the real problem I’m seeing now is there are 2 types of leather in play, under 1 umbrella. Standard thin and heavy duty hard stuff. I’m vexed now…because I doubt the devs are going to add this distinction =/
(awesome though this would be…naturally solving this entire argument)
While many prefab leather garments are thin. There are indeed some seriously heavy duty leather garments that could be legit armor. So unless we ask the devs to make the distinction in game. I doubt either side will be happy.
Feel free to consider this an polite request of the devs for thin and hard leather distinction. I’d like it if other people would ask for this too. Since there are tons of thin leather items in game and hard leather items too.[/quote]
I think the more blunt answer that others are skirting around is in order. Allow me to do that with some statements.
Leather from a consumer product is not the only leather out there. Your leather clothes might protect you from a boo boo when you bumped into the metal shelving but it won’t protect you from an assailant intentionally attacking you with an edged weapon. Heavy leather stuff like leather armor from medieval military gear would. It will be thick, heavy, stiff and encumbering. If you cut up a consumer product you only get a few patches because it’d need to be layered to get an armor patch from it. Kevlar is flexible and it is only typically a dozen layers. It protects from bullets, not knives. That is why soft armor (Kevlar) typically has a pocket for a hard plate to stop a knife. Knives and bullets aren’t the same. And yes, you can sew it with a sewing machine.
Metal armor is encumbering as others pointed out. It needs a larger scale to differentiate which Kevin already pointed out as well. Encumberment is not just about weight and not just range of motion. Socks that are too loose will encumber your feet if you have to hike in them. Shoes even two sizes too big or small make running a real challenge.
I think you might look at most of this and think ‘gee I want to get more outta this’ and you imagine yourself standing in your room and how a plate armor suit would be no big deal. If you’ve worn real armor and actually conducted real exercises with it (like I actually have) you’ll see how sprinting for your life, avoiding strike with all your might at the last second and swinging with all your might to make a killing blow or holding a rifle and looking down the ironsights while heaving for air can be encumbering. Anyone who has worn modern plate carriers will attest to how they would interfere (ie., encumber) your ability to swing a weapon, shoulder a rifle to track a running target at 50 meters, wrestle with a combatant in CQC or sneak a box of Toast-'ems from the shelf while escaping notice of the Hulk outside. Heck, with plate armor, you can engage in combat and never get hit and still end up with cuts, bruises and pinches from the armor itself. And heatstroke. Never tried to shoulder or fire a rifle with plate but that’d be comically infuriating.
If you’ve ever handled kevlar you’d understand why. Kevlar can be cut with a pair of decent fabric scissors (due to it’s low compressive strength), is far more flexible and lightweight than leather of similar density, and is designed in such a way as to provide maximum protection with minimal layers. Leather does stop bullets, up to a certain caliber, but leather sufficient to provide protection from rounds in excess of .25 (or low power 9mm) would be extremely bulky. Go check out some motorcycle leathers sometime, they’re hardly lightweight or super flexible.
The idea behind adding leather reinforcement to gear is not adding thin, designer style leather like you’d find in an off the shelf jacket or pair of pants, but rather protection on par with welding gauntlets or butcher (or if you’re so inclined blacksmith) aprons. What you see when you look at a lot of kevlar protective gear is kevlar reinforced with an epoxy which gives it the rigid structure seen in police and military gear. In addition heavier protection (classed as III and IV by the National Institute of Justice) is provided by polyethlene, ceramic, or even steel plates inserted into a kevlar carrier (we see this already in game as MBR vests). Since kevlar is a tightly woven plastic fiber with extremely high tensile strength it can provide protection with minimal weight and loss of mobility.[/quote]
I would agree with you here EXCcccceeppppttttt…no…While a sheet of kevlar is maleable and perhaps relatively easy to cut, in game however are prefabricated items like a vest. It takes a machine to stitch kevlar and unless you used 15 or so sheets of it, it doesn’t much against stabbing. Prisons last I hear were in the market for something that could prevent guards getting shanked and kevlar wasn’t doing the job. There is a chemical solution however that when added to a standard vest, it can take a ice pick up to a few hundred pounds, because the chemical(i forgot the name) seeps into the gaps of the kevlar sheets and tightens when a sharp point is applied.
Also as you point out in regard to leather. Leather in game is higher than kevlar annnnnnnd no…it won’t stop a standard packed bullet(dangerous even if it were half packed birdshot at 10 feet). You can’t convince me here, because half the sources of leather are from prefab garments, like pants and boots etc. While you can hunt animals for skin and make your own leather. It will still not be as good as those biker jackets. I live near a Harley shop and a leather shop(they don’t make stuff, but sell 100’s of items). Sooo…yes, actually it is think malleable designer leather. The real problem I see is not that you are wrong. In fact, I can agree with some biker jackets. But the real problem I’m seeing now is there are 2 types of leather in play, under 1 umbrella. Standard thin and heavy duty hard stuff. I’m vexed now…because I doubt the devs are going to add this distinction =/
(awesome though this would be…naturally solving this entire argument)
While many prefab leather garments are thin. There are indeed some seriously heavy duty leather garments that could be legit armor. So unless we ask the devs to make the distinction in game. I doubt either side will be happy.
Feel free to consider this an polite request of the devs for thin and hard leather distinction. I’d like it if other people would ask for this too. Since there are tons of thin leather items in game and hard leather items too.[/quote]
I think the more blunt answer that others are skirting around is in order. Allow me to do that with some statements.
Leather from a consumer product is not the only leather out there. Your leather clothes might protect you from a boo boo when you bumped into the metal shelving but it won’t protect you from an assailant intentionally attacking you with an edged weapon. Heavy leather stuff like leather armor from medieval military gear would. It will be thick, heavy, stiff and encumbering. If you cut up a consumer product you only get a few patches because it’d need to be layered to get an armor patch from it. Kevlar is flexible and it is only typically a dozen layers. It protects from bullets, not knives. That is why soft armor (Kevlar) typically has a pocket for a hard plate to stop a knife. Knives and bullets aren’t the same. And yes, you can sew it with a sewing machine.
Metal armor is encumbering as others pointed out. It needs a larger scale to differentiate which Kevin already pointed out as well. Encumberment is not just about weight and not just range of motion. Socks that are too loose will encumber your feet if you have to hike in them. Shoes even two sizes too big or small make running a real challenge.
I think you might look at most of this and think ‘gee I want to get more outta this’ and you imagine yourself standing in your room and how a plate armor suit would be no big deal. If you’ve worn real armor and actually conducted real exercises with it (like I actually have) you’ll see how sprinting for your life, avoiding strike with all your might at the last second and swinging with all your might to make a killing blow or holding a rifle and looking down the ironsights while heaving for air can be encumbering. Anyone who has worn modern plate carriers will attest to how they would interfere (ie., encumber) your ability to swing a weapon, shoulder a rifle to track a running target at 50 meters, wrestle with a combatant in CQC or sneak a box of Toast-'ems from the shelf while escaping notice of the Hulk outside. Heck, with plate armor, you can engage in combat and never get hit and still end up with cuts, bruises and pinches from the armor itself. And heatstroke. Never tried to shoulder or fire a rifle with plate but that’d be comically infuriating.[/quote]
A lot of people attribute the code of chivalry to the reason why the plate wearing knights of yore never used bows in battle.
I tried it at a medieval re-enactment battle three years back.
I could barely reach the bloody quiver nevermind stretch to fire the damned thing.
Yeah I always just assumed that if you cut up thin leather and used it to make a thick leather item then you must be using multiple layers. It works out okay since the thinner items give fewer patches to begin with.
Hektoer- Please actually read what I write. Your responses are non-sensical enough to prove you did not read what I had written.
I wrote quite clearly there is a distinction between soft & hard leather. But the PROBLEM is, in game there is no distinction.
Soft and hard leather has good points and arguments. What we need is the distinction/function between them in game. That way people who want battle armor can use hard. Those who just want to avoid scrapes and still be quick can do that too.