Tailoring Upgrades GIMPED WTF? =(

[ZoneWizard]

So the last build I checked out is 960 from around nov.23(I think).

Anyway, I can’t help but get annoyed at the crap changes to upgrading my gear in regards to Encumbrance.

Can someone PLEASE tell the files I need to change these upgrade functions or could someone just make the change in game to correct this terrible function?

My argument is pretty simple. Each upgrade should NOT encumber the character much at all except for kevlar. The reason why is simple. Real fur pelts/Leather/Wool will NOT impede normal movement even in fine areas of movement such as the fingers.

These materials are soft and should NOT bulk up the tailored item in question to literally 3 times the mass of the item. It would be no different than wearing 3 pairs of gloves or 3 of any other item. An upgrade of leather/fur/wool/rags etc(except kevlar) would be in places it would NOT impede the usage of the item.

Besides which, such materials are soft. Even leather from pants is usually ply-able to a thin cotton shirt. They just would make for a slightly better, cut resistant garment.

PLEEEEAAAASSSSSEEE some one make the average enbrance of these 3 materials only around 3-7 points of encumbrance instead of 3–>15 which is as I mentioned, like wearing 3 of 1 item, which doesn’t make any sense when upgrading. ESPECIALLY if you know how to tailor =(

[pisskop]

I dont know. Putting leather on your socks or a layer of fur onto anything nonrigid does affect encumrbance and ease of motion.

[ZoneWizard]

I dont know. Putting leather on your socks or a layer of fur onto anything nonrigid does affect encumrbance and ease of motion.

Uhmm…no? 0_o

Think about it. Your skin is thin, so unless you take down a Rhino and use THAT type of skin, it won’t encumber much at all. The average source or leather (for example) will be items already made of leather, like pants. The parts to tailor upgrade are not making a completely enclosed item. Hmm…to better explain, you won’t be adding 20 layers of leather to a pair of socks. Even if you completely enclose your socks in a layer of leather. It would be no difference than a store bought pair of heavy duty winter socks. Which fit into a pair of shoes or boots normally. I know…I wear Steel Toe boots + 2 pair of heavy socks at work in the winter. Doesn’t encumber me in the slightest.

For any other item. Tailoring leather or wool or fur pelts to a garment will not impede the body. The reason would be because you(as a tailor) would only place the material in areas that would not impede to begin with…yah know because why would you want to impede your movement to begin with? Thats just stupid -_o

A good example is a suit of metal armor from old europe. They would not make a suit you couldn’t move in and go…“Hark, Thou art un-able to move because we were stupid and designed a suit you could not move in…derp!”. lol

So in short…tailoring an upgrade(NOT using kevlar) should not encumber 3x the point of an object. Though every upgrade should of course stack. So logically I’ll completely agree with this example-

3(base/fits) + 3 Leather + 3 Fur + 3 wool/cotton.

So those socks would get pretty crazy if you went full upgrade. So yes…if you did that with socks AND shoes…you would get some big problems with encumbrance. The idea would be to choose the stuff you feel you need and NOT go full bulk upgrade with every item. But as I believe I mentioned before, upgrades should never be an entire item over the other, such as gloves. It should not be 3(fits)—>15 encumbrance for 1 upgrade. Thats silly, it would be like adding 2 extra pairs of gloves over the first pair which is NOT how the mechanic works. An upgrade by logic is a small addition of incremental degree. So leather upgrade should be more like +3 encumbrance and it would add to top and bottom of the glove for protection. Not encapsulate the whole glove with another glove(which is silly, as I could just wear 2 pairs of gloves, defeating the tailoring skill altogether wtf?!).

[scorpion451]

[quote=“pisskop, post:2, topic:10931”]I dont know. Putting leather on your socks or a layer of fur onto anything nonrigid does affect encumrbance and ease of motion.

Uhmm…no? 0_o

Think about it. Your skin is thin, so unless you take down a Rhino and use THAT type of skin, it won’t encumber much at all. The average source or leather (for example) will be items already made of leather, like pants. The parts to tailor upgrade are not making a completely enclosed item. Hmm…to better explain, you won’t be adding 20 layers of leather to a pair of socks. Even if you completely enclose your socks in a layer of leather. It would be no difference than a store bought pair of heavy duty winter socks. Which fit into a pair of shoes or boots normally. I know…I wear Steel Toe boots + 2 pair of heavy socks at work in the winter. Doesn’t encumber me in the slightest.[/quote]

I think you’re thinking about this wrong. The problem is that you you aren’t making a new pair of socks out of leather. You are sewing patches of leather onto your existing socks. Leather socks would be hard enough to move in to begin with, but kludging them together around an existing pair of socks is going to create something less than ideal. Even if we switch to comparing wool-patched socks to store bought winter socks, they are going to be less than ideal: A pair of store-bought or well made winter socks is designed to be thick and warm without being encumbering. A pair of socks that you add wool to, not so much.

Basically, the patch system is all about kludging. This is not a carefully planned, strategically placed system of reinforcements; that’s what the survivor gear represents. This is taking the scraps of leather you just cut out of some sneakers and a pair of gloves and stitching them onto your socks. Tailoring lets you graduate from this system to actually making ideal gear, which you can then reinforce further with additional patches at the cost of some freedom of movement.

[jedibob5]

Medieval full plate armor was incredibly encumbering. It’s not that it wouldn’t let the wearer move at all, but it very much decreased their speed and range of motion.

As for leather and fur encumbering clothes, well, you’re kinda wrong. Yes, fur and leather are pliable, but they’re definitely stiffer than just fabric. Any motion will be somewhat more difficult than just the fabric. Your steel-toed boots and heavy socks may not encumber you enough to take away from the ability to do your job, but I’m fairly certain that you would not be able to run in them as easily as you would be able to run in a pair of tennis shoes. And in game, foot encumbrance increases the movement points that it takes to run. That’s all realistic. For another example, go put on a pair of non-fingerless gloves, of any material, even fabric, and try typing. It’s noticeably harder, and typing on a phone keyboard is nearly impossible.

And the solution of “not putting any material in places where it would limit motion” would require placing so little material on the item that it wouldn’t really do its job, particularly on gloves. Fur needs to cover large areas in order to provide meaningful warmth, and while you could place bits of leather over areas where it wouldn’t drastically affect range of motion, at that point, you’ve maybe got 30-40% coverage at best. If the encumbrance were to be reduced, the protection it provides would have to be nerfed.

I think you’re overestimating the effects of encumbrance here. 10 encumbrance (which is equivalent to 1 encumbrance before the recent changes to the system making it more granular) is really not that big of a deal. I have 14 torso encumbrance on my current character, but I still do just fine in combat. I’d be slightly better without it, but it’s a tradeoff I have to deal with in order to have the storage space of my backpack and the warmth of my clothing. Being encumbered is not the end of the world. At a certain point, choosing between being a little more encumbered and having a little more protection is something you’re going to have to decide. You can’t just have the best of both worlds for free.

[railmonkey]

Hm. Both sides of this issue have valid points. Personally, I feel that reinforcement and encumbrance in general could use some reworking, but it’s not too terribly pressing an issue. As for the matter of full plate armour, well, I’m just going to leave these here: Armour Aerobics, Armour mobility As for encumbrance, see here: The TRUTH about full plate (0:30 to 1:00, though the whole 16:00 is good stuff)

[TheWumpus]

Well, since I can’t find a json that handles tailoring, looks like you’ll just have to learn how to decompile the base code, change it to your liking, and recompile it.

Or, ya know, you could just go into the armor.json and edit everything to have 0 encumberance. Tailor to your heart’s content after that without worrying about becoming over encumbered. I suggest JSONedit. It’s free and easy to use.

Random side note, is it possible to give something a negative encumberance value? That would be kind of cool for certain artifact armors, like a quantum suit of power armor that actually makes it easier to move/run/reload…or cbms that offset encumberance…or mutations…or…aww hell now I need to try this. For !!SCIENCE!!.

Edit: HOLY CRAP YOU CAN. Negative encumberance (uncumberance? noncumberance? discumberance?) appears to be capped at -25. So now not only can I make a bag of holding that’s weightless, it actually reduces the torso encumberance you have because quantum thaums. Sweeeeet.

[deknegt]

[quote=“TheWumpus, post:7, topic:10931”]Well, since I can’t find a json that handles tailoring, looks like you’ll just have to learn how to decompile the base code, change it to your liking, and recompile it.

Or, ya know, you could just go into the armor.json and edit everything to have 0 encumberance. Tailor to your heart’s content after that without worrying about becoming over encumbered. I suggest JSONedit. It’s free and easy to use.

Random side note, is it possible to give something a negative encumberance value? That would be kind of cool for certain artifact armors, like a quantum suit of power armor that actually makes it easier to move/run/reload…or cbms that offset encumberance…or mutations…or…aww hell now I need to try this. For !!SCIENCE!!.

Edit: HOLY CRAP YOU CAN. Negative encumberance (uncumberance? noncumberance? discumberance?) appears to be capped at -25. So now not only can I make a bag of holding that’s weightless, it actually reduces the torso encumberance you have because quantum thaums. Sweeeeet.[/quote]

So does that BOH also give you like 2000 volume? The only thing that would make it a ‘less realistic’ bag of holding is that a true BOH would not encumber you both in movement and weight So maybe there should be a way to add negative encumberance AND negative weight

Also, I personally never EVER use upgrades, wool is kinda useless because using long underwear, balaclavas, and wool scarfs I tend to get my heat up to a comfortable level… Leather and Kevlar on the other hand gives an insane bump to encumberance to the point that you’re better off using other clothes that stack better with comparable or less encumberance, and perhaps a little less protection.

On the one hand it can bump up protection to wicked levels and can make your early game armour into mid-game armor… On the other hand the advantages are almost completely outweighed with the disadvantages… If my usual undershirt/trenchoat/quiver combination gives me like 16 encumberance, and with a backpack it’s like 26 at best, then only upgrading my trenchoat (which is a reasonably loose garment) would put me over 30 without the backpack. And that’s with just the bare minimum of clothing too, and for me anything above 20 is too much of a disadvantage unless you’re like 6 or higher in your combat stats.

Granted, I use a repeating X-Bow most of the time, so whenever I get into melee combat I still use my steel spear to keep them 2 tiles away from me. (Spears be OP)

[TheWumpus]

[quote=“deknegt, post:8, topic:10931”][quote=“TheWumpus, post:7, topic:10931”]Random side note, is it possible to give something a negative encumberance value? That would be kind of cool for certain artifact armors, like a quantum suit of power armor that actually makes it easier to move/run/reload…or cbms that offset encumberance…or mutations…or…aww hell now I need to try this. For !!SCIENCE!!.

Edit: HOLY CRAP YOU CAN. Negative encumberance (uncumberance? noncumberance? discumberance?) appears to be capped at -25. So now not only can I make a bag of holding that’s weightless, it actually reduces the torso encumberance you have because quantum thaums. Sweeeeet.[/quote]

So does that BOH also give you like 2000 volume? The only thing that would make it a ‘less realistic’ bag of holding is that a true BOH would not encumber you both in movement and weight So maybe there should be a way to add negative encumberance AND negative weight :D[/quote]

Maximum carry volume for a piece of gear appears to be 160. Putting negative weight on an item reduces overall weight carried. For instance, giving a pair of socks -5000 weight makes them -11.0 pounds. Setting it to -50000 = -110.2 pounds of carried weight. Also the encumbrance bonus (I still like uncumbrance) only applies to covered area. So a bag of holding attached to say the torso would reduce torso encumbrance and supply increased carry weight by subtracting from total weight carried. It doesn’t subtract or add to maximum weight capacity, it just offsets it with a negative weight applied to the inventory. Right now my test character has -34.2/112lbs. The moves per attack on a pair of socks that weighs -110.2 lbs is -746 or so. Apparently this just gives you lots and lots and lots of attacks before anything can respond. ~19-20 swings at an amoebic mold before it had a chance to move.

So now not only can I make uncumbrance weight reducing gear (which just having in your inventory reduces weight carried) I can make ethereal weaponry.

[Iosyn]

A good example is a suit of metal armor from old europe. They would not make a suit you couldn’t move in and go…“Hark, Thou art un-able to move because we were stupid and designed a suit you could not move in…derp!”. lol

It seems someone here has never worn a set of full plate. >.>

The surviving French men-at-arms reached the front of the English line and pushed it back, with the longbowmen on the flanks continuing to shoot at point-blank range. When the archers ran out of arrows, they dropped their bows and using hatchets, swords and the mallets they had used to drive their stakes in, attacked the now disordered, fatigued and wounded French men-at-arms massed in front of them. The French could not cope with the thousands of lightly armoured longbowmen assailants (who were much less hindered by the mud and weight of their armour) combined with the English men-at-arms. The impact of thousands of arrows, combined with the slog in heavy armour through the mud, the heat and lack of oxygen in plate armour with the visor down, and the crush of their numbers meant the French men-at-arms could "scarcely lift their weapons" when they finally engaged the English line. The exhausted French men-at-arms are described as being knocked to the ground by the English and then unable to get back up.

[Sundaysmile]

[quote=“ZoneWizard, post:3, topic:10931”]A good example is a suit of metal armor from old europe. They would not make a suit you couldn’t move in and go…“Hark, Thou art un-able to move because we were stupid and designed a suit you could not move in…derp!”. lol

It seems someone here has never worn a set of full plate. >.>

The surviving French men-at-arms reached the front of the English line and pushed it back, with the longbowmen on the flanks continuing to shoot at point-blank range. When the archers ran out of arrows, they dropped their bows and using hatchets, swords and the mallets they had used to drive their stakes in, attacked the now disordered, fatigued and wounded French men-at-arms massed in front of them. The French could not cope with the thousands of lightly armoured longbowmen assailants (who were much less hindered by the mud and weight of their armour) combined with the English men-at-arms. The impact of thousands of arrows, combined with the slog in heavy armour through the mud, the heat and lack of oxygen in plate armour with the visor down, and the crush of their numbers meant the French men-at-arms could "scarcely lift their weapons" when they finally engaged the English line. The exhausted French men-at-arms are described as being knocked to the ground by the English and then unable to get back up.

[/quote]

Exactly the reason why most plate-wearers preferred to be on horseback. But even that’s not a guarantee, Lucernes, Billhooks and greatswords were all used in effect to either pull a rider to the ground, or cut down their steed and leave them no option. And once they were on the ground it was exceedingly difficult just to stand back up, even more so when groups of attackers are stabbing at your armour, whacking you with hammers and hafts, and using hooks to snag those ridged plates and keep you off balance. I imagine getting assailed by grasping and RELENTLESS undead monsters would be just as difficult to retaliate.

Though I sometimes wonder if this is a more accurate portrayal on how people armour themselves in Cataclysm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f9w5HBUmRg

[scorpion451]

[quote=“deknegt, post:8, topic:10931”]Also, I personally never EVER use upgrades, wool is kinda useless because using long underwear, balaclavas, and wool scarfs I tend to get my heat up to a comfortable level… Leather and Kevlar on the other hand gives an insane bump to encumberance to the point that you’re better off using other clothes that stack better with comparable or less encumberance, and perhaps a little less protection.

On the one hand it can bump up protection to wicked levels and can make your early game armour into mid-game armor… On the other hand the advantages are almost completely outweighed with the disadvantages… If my usual undershirt/trenchoat/quiver combination gives me like 16 encumberance, and with a backpack it’s like 26 at best, then only upgrading my trenchoat (which is a reasonably loose garment) would put me over 30 without the backpack. And that’s with just the bare minimum of clothing too, and for me anything above 20 is too much of a disadvantage unless you’re like 6 or higher in your combat stats.[/quote]

For me, patches do have their place- I get the most out of them in the early game and the late game, but they’re always useful. Early game, they’re a decent way to counter the RNG deciding it hates you and not giving you, say, any cold weather gear or decent armor. Mid game, a fur and kevlar lined helmet is a nice thing to have, and I usually keep a pair or two of fur lined stockings, hand wraps, and arm warmers handy- encumbrance doesn’t matter when you’re sleeping. Late game, when a character can spare some high encumbrance patches become really useful again for strategically min-maxing your gear: that electric thermal suit with a fur lining seems less ridiculous when it’s keeping you warm on the eighth floor of an ice lab.

[kevin.granade]

On the other hand the advantages are almost completely outweighed with the disadvantages…

This right here. I agree completely, it’s just that as the game designer I want this to be true, and as a player you want it to be false

[ZoneWizard]

Every one responded without having gotten any of my points at all.

Full plate was designed to have parts to allow movement. The weight was not apart of my point as leather and wool are not heavy as metal.

Leather from pants is as flexible as cloth. How do I know this? Because if you couldn’t move in them for walking nobody would buy/wear them in real life. How could that point be missed?? Fur pelts would me marginally higher in encumbrance points because of the fur.

My other point and what completely ruined the tailoring skill is this; It looks as though all items have 2-3 times the encumbrance for every ONE upgrade = to wearing 2-3 of the same item. This doesn’t make my argument invalid kevin, nor the change make any sense at all.

If I want to add a few strips of leather to any item. As a tailor, I’m not going to add so much and in places to make my garment difficult to move in. Nor would I place such parts in places that would impede me.

As for builds it seems up to 3950, tailor upgrades still seems to take an item and push the encumbrance up double or triple the base. How are my points not getting through? If a 3(base) item with 1 upgrade gets pushed to 15, how does this make sense to you people??? >_<

Same example another way:
3(base, fits) + 1 upgrade = 15
This seems ridiculous as it would be no different than wearing 3 pairs of gloves =(
That is bad on 1 pair and breaks tailoring. No tailor would do this wtf?

If that is how it’ll stay, humor me and tell me the part I need to change tailoring PLEASE, as that ruins a major play aspect of an otherwise great game =/

[Random_dragon]

So, I’ll go ahead and summarize a suggestion I made ages ago that fits in with your issue pertaining to how much encumbrance gets added onto low-encumbrance items.

Reduce the advantages AND disadvantages of enhancing clothing, depending on how low the encumbrance is. Basically, my assumption here is that it makes more sense for the player to only enhance such an item as much as would be COMFORTABLE to add, whereas the current system implies adding as much as the item could possibly support.

If I recall, Kevin kinda responded to the idea somewhat positively, but the idea was overall forgotten about, likely because no one was able to suggest concrete math for how to handle that idea.

EDIT: Issue opened for it. https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/14204

[Sundaysmile]

If I want to add a few strips of leather to any item. As a tailor, I’m not going to add so much and in places to make my garment difficult to move in. Nor would I place such parts in places that would impede me.

No, but you will add enough leather or kevlar that it provides enough protection to these parts. So that if someone strikes you, be it by blade, blunt or claw you’re protected and the material absorbs both the impact and the abrasion. Otherwise the material you’ve added is practically useless and a waste of time.

I cut up old boots for leather and painstakingly go through denier nylon and weaved Kevlar, and yeah I’m doing this to make parts of my clothing more durable when I’m working outdoors. And to put it into perspective, I’m not reinforcing my clothing for battle with the undead, I’m reinforcing my clothing to deal with the odd cut from a knife or lash from thorns when I’m either woodworking or foraging. And even with that, its still quite bulky and added weight.

If I DID modify my clothes to the point that I wanted to create a make-shift battle-suit i’d be walking around like I were inside a giant fat kid.

I mean yeah, leather in pants is flexible, leather in jackets is flexible, leather in kinky crotch pieces is flexible. But you’re not looking for flexible are you? You’re looking for protection.
And that means layers, that means bulking up and ensuring that you have enough material between your skin and whatever wants to lacerate your skin and remain unscathed.

On the otherhand if you just so happen to be working with some damn good leather then send some my way, I’ll put it through its paces. I’ll cut it, shear it, press it, burn it, chew it and make my friends wear it and smack em senseless with a big assed stick . All in the name of science.
Because its protection that you want in Cataclysm, and to do that you either need some damn fine fibers or padded layers of whatever you materials you find.

[Random_dragon]

Still, kevlar-padded loincloths. :V

[Sundaysmile]

Still, kevlar-padded loincloths. :V

I want protection AND breathability dammit!

[Random_dragon]

Almost as silly as nomex loincloths.

But yeah, thing is that with some items, it seems unfeasible for the player to even bother up-armoring them, and in my opinion it makes sense that, for a lot of items, you only add as much as is comfortable. It would largely depend on if going the extra mile is actually worth the benefit it gives, and to me the base encumbrance of the item is likely the best gameplay measure of that.

[Sundaysmile]

[quote=“Random_dragon, post:19, topic:10931”]Almost as silly as nomex loincloths.

But yeah, thing is that with some items, it seems unfeasible for the player to even bother up-armoring them, and in my opinion it makes sense that, for a lot of items, you only add as much as is comfortable. It would largely depend on if going the extra mile is actually worth the benefit it gives, and to me the base encumbrance of the item is likely the best gameplay measure of that.[/quote]

Yeah I can agree with that, I mean some items are feasible if you want to use them and improve them that’s fine. But if you want to go out of your way to roleplay someone in a kevlar padded fuzzy dinosaur suit or chainmail bikini with nomex hotpants then, sure have FUN with that. I just say dont expect good things, but I’m sure the stories told will be something worth talking about!

At the end of the day, its down to fine tuning the items and their individual values, and it IS something that the coders need feedback on. Its meticulous, its nitpicky, its downright anal, but its attention to detail. Something that this game does more than many on the market I believe.