Poll on Revival Options/Toggles/Flags

GlyphGryph · 2013-09-12T15:17:42.000Z

Since there seem to be some people who really want a straightforward, less biased poll (meaningless as the results are likely to be), let’s try this again.

The devs are currently in the process of removing the “zombie revival” toggle from the options menu when generating a world, in favour of making the revival option a property of individual monsters, giving the player more control over what, exactly, revives (and probably the parameters of how). This is largely to support the coming mod tools - so if someone makes a game similar to classic with no reviving zombies, but wants to add uber-powerful Vampires that do, they can.

If you support this move, select option one. If, instead, you would prefer the simpler global “all zombies revive on/off” toggle, select option two. If you think you’ve get a better idea, select option three and post, and if you don’t care in the slightest, option four is for you (but then, you probably haven’t read this far).

kevin.granade · 2013-09-12T15:42:32.000Z

The bias I was describing wasn’t from the wording of the poll or anything, it’s systemic to forum polls,and what’s being polled for. It’s just not a system you can get meaningfull results out of.

Additionally this isn’t something that it’s remotely resonable to poll on, an option is just the totally wrong way to implement this feature.

kilozombie · 2013-09-12T15:52:14.000Z

That’s your opinion, though, Kevin, let’s keep in mind. Just because a poll is biased doesn’t automatically mean you’re right.

Although, I do personally think that if they are all in .json files- easily configurable- it’s better to make it just a flag instead of a generic option. This lets the player make their own game modded- how they like it- and unique, and more fun for them. You can do a lot with the json files, more than just the on/off options.

Dwarf Fortress is kind of like this. They have raw files, which contain some info for monsters and items and such. Most common players have made their own tweaks, like making dwarves bigger or smaller or changing the damage of axes, or what have you. If they don’t think the game is perfectly balanced, but somebody else does, they can tweak it to the decimal.

GlyphGryph · 2013-09-12T15:55:31.000Z

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:2, topic:3008”]The bias I was describing wasn’t from the wording of the poll or anything, it’s systemic to forum polls,and what’s being polled for. It’s just not a system you can get meaningfull results out of.

Additionally this isn’t something that it’s remotely resonable to poll on, an option is just the totally wrong way to implement this feature.[/quote]

This is why I said the results would still ultimately be meaningless. I just suspect things would be different even among the same group with different wording.

kevin.granade · 2013-09-12T16:39:55.000Z

I’m not saying I know precisely what people think about the issue, all I’m saying is that a poll doesn’t provide meaningful information.

If you think having it in json is better, why are you still arguing about it? We’ve said that’s what we’re doing.

It’ll look something like:

{
    "type" : "monster",
    "id" : "zombie",
    "name" : "zombie",
    "species" : "zombie",
    "symbol" : 'Z',
    "color" : "light_green",
    "size" : "medium",
    # bunches of stats, not gonna type them all out.
    "description" : "Bla bla scary brains bla bla shambling bla bla horrifying bl bla eatyourface.",
    "flags" : ["sees", "hears", "smells", "stumbles", "warm, ""bashes", "poison", "bleed",
               "no_breathe", "vis_40", "revives"],
    "categories" : ["zombie", "classic_zombie"]
}

Cockatrice · 2013-09-12T16:40:09.000Z

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:4, topic:3008”][quote=“Kevin Granade, post:2, topic:3008”]The bias I was describing wasn’t from the wording of the poll or anything, it’s systemic to forum polls,and what’s being polled for. It’s just not a system you can get meaningfull results out of.

Additionally this isn’t something that it’s remotely resonable to poll on, an option is just the totally wrong way to implement this feature.[/quote]

This is why I said the results would still ultimately be meaningless. I just suspect things would be different even among the same group with different wording.[/quote]

With both of those choices there is a way to disable monster revival, that’s all people want. The problem is only you have rushed to disable the option before you implemented it the other way. Just keep that global option until new code is merged.

kevin.granade · 2013-09-12T16:46:33.000Z

As I said in the other thread, feel free to stick with a pre-option-removal verion of the game until the new version lands, you have a options here, pick one that doesn’t involve telling other people what to do.

Cockatrice · 2013-09-12T17:01:26.000Z

Deleted and banned, Yet another lazycat sockpuppet.
kevingrande> People may or may not be aware, but the guy makes sockpuppet accounts like 3-5 times a day. Evidently trolling us is more important than whatever else is happening in his life. If someone shows up out of nowhere and starts making nonsensical arguments and criticisms with no prompting, feel free to flag their posts for moderation.

Rivet · 2013-09-12T17:24:08.000Z

Maybe I’m the only one, but I like the reviving zeds.

If the option to disable it never returns I won’t mind one bit.

i2amroy · 2013-09-12T18:14:37.000Z

Moving it to a flag also fills the first step of having dynamically customizable “upgrade” groups for revival (so you could have zombies potentially become stronger ones on revival, or you could mod it to have bees upgrade to ants when they revive, whatever). It would be as simple as adding a revivelist.json and then having “revive:zombie” or something similar.

Annarchia · 2013-09-12T18:17:32.000Z

I just thought I’d chime in here with my own opinion - Having it in the JSON would make it handy for mod makers and the developers, allowing them to design their versions of the apocalypse to their specifications.

On the other hand, having a global “disable revivals” override makes it handy for players, allowing them to not have to mod the game (or mod their mods) to play without.

Thus, I support both - A per-critter revive flag, as well as a global “skip reviving checks” option.

PiotraperPL · 2013-09-12T18:27:44.000Z

[quote=“Another Sockpuppet”][quote=“Kevin Granade, post:2, topic:3008”]The bias I was describing wasn’t from the wording of the poll or anything, it’s systemic to forum polls,and what’s being polled for. It’s just not a system you can get meaningfull results out of.

Additionally this isn’t something that it’s remotely resonable to poll on, an option is just the totally wrong way to implement this feature.[/quote]

EDIT: Why should I quote a deleted post, eh?[/quote]

That’s acutally the best solution so far:

Why don’t both?

Let’s say, that someone has created a modification to the game that adds tennage mutant ninja motomice from outer space that everyone loves but they revive. If someone has a problem with just them reviving they can easily remove the flag. But if someone hates reviving in general then he will just disable it quickly in the options.

You will probably say that maintaining options is a problem and they get in the way while writing the code. I honestly have no idea how you did those options as I haven’t got around to checking what’s inside those precious non-JSON files. Please, don’t hate me, I know they’re a problem, and if this problem is very big, then go ahead and delete it.

[size=2pt]Oh, and I have a feeling my grammar sucks today. If there’s something that bothers your eyes then tell me, I will correct it.[/size]

i2amroy · 2013-09-12T18:44:19.000Z

Once the mod manager goes in I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up with a default “no-reviving” mod distributed with it, meaning you will be able to just check a box somewhere and you won’t have reviving zombies anymore.

PiotraperPL · 2013-09-12T18:54:05.000Z

i2amroy:

Once the mod manager goes in I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up with a default “no-reviving” mod distributed with it, meaning you will be able to just check a box somewhere and you won’t have reviving zombies anymore.

This gets my vote.

Annarchia · 2013-09-12T18:59:02.000Z

i2amroy:

Once the mod manager goes in I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up with a default “no-reviving” mod distributed with it, meaning you will be able to just check a box somewhere and you won’t have reviving zombies anymore.

One of the reasons I support a global override, as well as individual revive flags, is because any such “no revive” mod would, by its nature, be the original files with the “revive” flag removed. Thus, in order to support another mod, you would have to make a new “no revive” for that specific mod. A global override would allow the player to decide that nothing should revive, while still allowing mod authors to say “terminator kill-bots revive”, which would keep both people happy - Unless, of course, it is one of those mod authors who feel that anyone not playing by their rules is “ruining the game”.

That said, I don’t know how the revive system, and its option, work(s/ed) in Cataclysm - My programming knowledge comes from writing text adventures, not from “real” programming languages. Were it me, I would simply check the “override” flag, and skip the entirety of the revival code if it were true.

i2amroy · 2013-09-12T19:16:47.000Z

Annarchia:

One of the reasons I support a global override, as well as individual revive flags, is because any such “no revive” mod would, by its nature, be the original files with the “revive” flag removed. Thus, in order to support another mod, you would have to make a new “no revive” for that specific mod.

A mass find/replace of “revives” (or whatever our flag gets called) with an empty string ("") would remove all the reviving from the game (assuming monsters are pulled out to JSON by then, which hopefully shouldn’t be much longer). It’d take like 4 seconds and can be done in pretty much any text editor, which is about the same length of time as having an “option”.

Iosyn · 2013-09-12T19:57:39.000Z

The new system would allow you to choose which mobs if any revive, correct? If so it’s practically the same anyway, you just have more customization.
In any case I’d like to see how it’s gonna be implemented, as the whole issue seems something relatively minor that’s been blown way out of proportion.

kilozombie · 2013-09-12T20:01:19.000Z

Mutagen:

Make it be an in-game option, or else!

Or else what?

You have no power here.

Rivet · 2013-09-12T20:02:52.000Z

I’m guessing he has none in real life either.

Why else would he spend 16+ hours each day spamming us with his stolen tilesets and virus-laden garbage?

moist_zombie · 2013-09-12T20:09:44.000Z

At first when I heard about the removal I was all “NOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo…” but then Kevin pointed out that we don’t have a “Oh, just shoot them in the head to be SURE they’re dead!” mechanic, so there indeed should be some kind of extra step involved in making sure they don’t get back up (logic here comes from the existence of skeletons in-game… If a skeleton can get up then you better bet a fully fleshed zombie you whacked a good couple times with a crowbar will get back up eventually too…

The old toggle is fine, the new flag idea is fine The no option is fine, too, because I tend already to cheat to soften the game up as much as possible (the more I’m denied, the more I’ll have to actually play :D)

Just popping in to suggest MOAR! May as well throw in more flags (must_be_pulped, must_be_burned, must_be_butchered, must_be_hit_by_a_vehicle_exceeding_sound_barrier_speeds har har, or some inverted blocking flags like cant_be_pulped etc)… This could be information revealed by the future autopsies, and would add even more flavor to possible mods…

Basically, I’m all for the devs having piles and piles of work added to their already ridiculous piles of work Not really, but I am in general favor of options of any kind