Places of interest

Once upon a time, there was a post:

Something like this is pretty much my alley, so I decided to give it a shot. Please do mind that this is just a suggestion (I wouldn’t want to tell anyone how the game is supposed to look - these are simply my thoughts on what could be implemented), hence I would like to hear your opinions and (constructive) reviews of this idea.

Initial assumption:
The refugee centres get upgraded to settlements - reflecting the rare cases when groups of survivors have somehow overcome the odds and successfully make a living in the apocalyptic world. These could be thought of as either mini-factions or as building blocks that constitute the factions. How to upgrade them ?

1. Settlements

1.1 Control zone
Each settlement projects a zone of influence, which spawns patrols (while lowering the spawn rate of monsters) and allows “facilities” to be operated. The reasoning behind this is that the settlement would be able to send out scouts / workers to any destination within the zone and have them return in a reasonable timeframe. Ok, what would be the effective range of a settlement ?

[spoiler]Actually, range is somewhat impractical, so let us consider the time it would take for a squad to travel to their destination and return to the settlement – I’ll call it the “settlement reaction time” or SRT. Now, the actual question is how long a SRT would be feasible for survival. With the environment being as hostile as it is, I would expect a relatively cautious approach to be undertaken by settlements (unless we’re talking raiders, but all in due time). Hence, a SRT of the order of 8-12 hours seems plausible (enough to dispatch further forces to deal with any adversities or to evacuate the town in the face of overwhelming odds).

In the event of an attack on a “facility” (heavily fortified, of course), its garrison should be able to hold out for this long until reinforcements came. If the attackers would be able to conquer the place, it is unlikely that a sufficiently large force could be assembled fast enough to deal with the threat. The same logic works for missing squads / other events. That said, while it would be lovely to have such an action / reaction system actually implemented, it would take a tremendous amount of work – best leave it as the background, explaining the existence of control zones …for now.
[/spoiler]

Summary of the spoiler: The range would be what could be travelled back and forth in the span of 8-12 hours.

We have the time, so what would be the actual range ? It would depend on the speed, at which the settlement squads could travel.

In the most basic case (ragtag band of survivors without any infrastructure worth mentioning), this would be the walking speed of an average survivor. Evolving settlements would employ vehicles – bikes at first, then more advanced stuff, up to simple solar-powered trucks. There is no point in keeping track of what kinds of vehicles and how many of them are in the possession of the settlement – this can be simulated by another stat – “maximum squad speed” or MSS.

This speed would be tied to the population of a settlement (amount of available goods), the “facilities” under its control and, possibly, the results of quests undertaken by the player.

Great, we know the speed, so we can draw a nice circle around the settlement, right ? We could, but there is the question of terrain. Taking such factors into account will significantly affect the shape of our zone, but it’s reasonable that a river will be a hindrance for expansion, as much as a good road network would be a boon. How to solve this technically ?
I believe most of you can come up with better solutions for the problem than mine. Nevertheless, I should at least propose something, shouldn’t I ?

[spoiler]Taking the product of MSS (maximum squad speed for the settlement) and SRT (either set or slightly randomised) we get an amount of movement points and, therefore, a raw range. Now, we move outwards from the settlement in every direction – we get a 3 x 3 square (we work on map tiles (the ones on the mini map, where one house = 1 tile – if I’m using the wrong term, please correct me) – using actual tiles would mean a lot of needlessly precise calculations) around the settlement (or larger if the settlement occupies more tiles). Identifying what tiles we have encountered on each path, we deduct an appropriate number of movement points from the pool for this path. Now, we increase the distance by one tile → 5 x 5 square and calculate the movement point costs to get to each of its tiles from each of the tiles of the previous square. Among the results for each square or range = 2 tiles, we select the minimal costs and use that for the next square…

I’m not a programmer, so the algorithm is shabby – I am well aware of that. Eventually, we deplete our movement points pool for each path and end up with some kind of a blob-shaped control zone.
[/spoiler]

Having the shape of the control zone defined, we can move on to its other key parameter, namely its impact on the world. This would of course be the ability to capture and operate “facilities” (yes / no check), the spawn rates (and strength / equipment) of patrols/workers/caravans and monsters (progressive with distance from the settlement – calculations in the last spoiler could be used as a base for that) and possible special sites for the player to interact with (temporary camp for a squad – quests/trade/background; remains of a squad – quest (bring info about the missing to the settlement – return nametags for reputation/rewards)) / gear; lost citizen – quest).

Similar to the factors affecting speed, spawn rates / types of encountered NPCs could also be dependent on the “facilities” controlled by the settlement, its overall tech level, stockpile of goods and effects of quests undertaken by the player.

[spoiler]1.1.1 Control zone – further remarks

Logically, forces don’t have to be dispatched from the settlement itself, but may be based outside it. In the wilderness ? Yes, within permanent fortifications – outposts and waystations.

Outposts first – when a settlement is sufficiently powerful, it may “sprout” outposts, either on its own or through bestowing a series of quests upon the player (“secure territory for outpost construction”, “acquire materials for the outpost”, “escort workers”, “defend the construction site”). Once in place, outposts would serve as bases for the forces of the settlement, essentially acting as additional “origin points” for control zone calculations, spreading it in their general direction (however, they should spread the zone only a bit – maybe half the range of what a settlement in the same place could do ?).

Waystations – instead of acting as bases, these would be small troop stations and trading posts, securing the territory. In game terms, they would amplify the effects on the spawn rates in all adjacent tiles and possibly house a NPC or two.
[/spoiler]

2. Facilities - places of interest

Now that the framework has been dealt with, we can focus on the controllable facilities. First of all, my assumption as to their purpose is that they would be points of interest (trading/quests/sightseeing/etc.) that would be operated by settlements rather than by players, and provide them various benefits, of which the player could partake indirectly (settlement controls a factory, making its products either available to the player (for more advanced stuff) or cheap to buy (for generally available goods).

Before I get into details of the various facilities, I would like to make one final remark:

While the idea of control zones is IMHO logical and fun to have (though it may be will likely be a monster in terms of coding), it may be scrapped in its entirety and replaced by facilities having a flag set for whichever settlement controls them.

Regardless of the mechanism, at the start, a settlement should control only a farm or two and control of facilities would be achieved through a series of player-taken quests or as an (rare) event. This could also be an interesting endgame challenge - the “capture facilities” aspect will be a nice excuse to have the player crawl through severe dungeons, brimming with powerful monsters (Ice labs ? How about an underground magma lake for a change ? Kill the mosnters and get the artefact before you burn up !).

Now, for the fun stuff ! Will try giving a short background about each type of facility, its size on the map and what would its “grid” contain (no idea of what the algorithm for generating multi-tile structures is, so I’m unable to go into very much detail). The coordinates for stuff in each facility (if given) will be in the X-Y format.

2.1 Farms

2.1.1 Abandoned farm (4 x 3 tiles); Variations: Normal / Barren / Fertile / Afflicted

Descriptions:[spoiler]

Normal:
“These sprawling facilities used to feed the hungry mouths of New England citizens. Their original workers are long gone – dead, mutated or driven insane, the abandoned livestock was left to share a similar fate, but a portion of its crops managed to survive. Bringing the place back to its original production capability is an impossible task for a single person – more people will be needed. Nevertheless, in the right hands, the farm could thrive once again…”

Barren:
“These sprawling facilities used to feed the hungry mouths of New England citizens. Their original workers are long gone – dead, mutated or driven insane, the abandoned livestock was left to share a similar fate, but a handful of feeble crops managed to survive. Bringing the place back to its original production capability is an impossible task for a single person, if not impossible altogether. Nevertheless, with a lot of effort, some food may be produced here…”

Fertile:
“These sprawling facilities used to feed the hungry mouths of New England citizens. Their original workers are long gone – dead, mutated or driven insane, the abandoned livestock was left to share a similar fate, but most of its ample crops managed to survive. Bringing the place back to its original production capability is an impossible task for a single person, nevertheless, in the right hands, this farm will thrive once again…”

Afflicted:
“These sprawling facilities used to feed the hungry mouths of New England citizens. Their original workers are long gone – dead, mutated or driven insane, the abandoned livestock was left to share a similar fate. Distorted shapes shuffle amongst the strange crops sticking out from the soil. The air is filled with an acrid stench and the windows of the farmhouse give off a sickly bluish light. This place surely couldn’t serve any purpose other than a nest for monsters …or could it ?”[/spoiler]

Grids:

[spoiler](Normal, barren, fertile):

Fields: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 3-3, 4-1, 4-2, 4-3
Chicken coop: 1-2
Shed: 1-3
Farmhouse: 2-2
Road: 2-3
Barn: 3-2

(Afflicted):

Ruins / rubble: 1-1, 3-2
Mutated fields: 1-2, 3-1, 4-1, 4-2, 4-3
Hole: 1-3
Slime pond: 2-1, 3-3
Evil farmhouse: 2-2
Road: 2-3[/spoiler]

2.1.2 Special “farms” (3 x 2 tiles); Variations: Hydroponic farm / Maple orchard / Mapleid grove

Hydroponic farm:

[spoiler]“A ruined house and some sheds by the river attracts little attention. The owners of this little wonder knew the importance of keeping a low profile. Unfortunately neither that nor a well-equipped hydroponic farm could have saved them from rotting peacefully in the driveway. The pipelines are clogged, the plants are dead, but the machinery is intact and some seeds persist. If only you could find the workforce to get this place up and running…”

Grid:

River: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1
Farmhouse: 1-2
Greenhouses: 2-2, 3-2
Pipes: Between Y1 and Y2[/spoiler]

Maple orchard:

[spoiler]“The sweet aroma of maple syrup and the buzzing of insects among the neat rows of maple trees are a relict of the past, just as the smouldering ruins of the once proud household are a reminder that this past will never return. Some of the equipment for producing maple syrup is still intact and some could be restored. Regardless how powerful, one lover of maple syrup will not suffice for this task…”

Grid:

Ruined house: 1-1
Road: 2-1, 2-2
Maple trees: 3-1, 1-2, 3-2[/spoiler]

Mapleid grove:

[spoiler]“Even though the sweet aroma of maple syrup fills the air, not a single insect can be seen. Hundreds of twisted maple trees make up the ranks and files of this motionless army. All is silent, save for the occasional clack of branches and what seems like a faint …heartbeat ?”

Grid:

Farmhouse with trap door: 1-1
Road: 2-1, 3-1
Twisted maple trees: 1-2, 2-2, 3-2[/spoiler]

2.2 Quarries

[spoiler]

2.2.1 Normal (abandoned) / Sunken (5 x 3 tiles)

Descriptions:

Sandstone:
“Once an eyesore and source of constant noise, this quarry has finally found peace, its gargantuan stonecutting machines sleeping silently among the sandstone rubble. Perhaps these behemoths could provide humanity with the much needed building material ? Even so, rousing them from their slumber is something one should not attempt …alone.”

Granite:
“Once an eyesore and source of constant noise, this quarry has finally found peace, its gargantuan stonecutting machines sleeping silently among granite shards. Being the toughest mineral one could hope for in New England, granite slabs would be an almost priceless resource for any town. Even so, rousing these behemoths from their slumber is something one should not attempt …alone.”

Limestone:
“Once an eyesore and source of constant noise, this quarry has finally found peace, its gargantuan stonecutting machines sleeping silently in the limestone dust. The foundation of the cement industry, limestone could be used for construction, however, acid rains might make short work of it. On the other hand, neutralising the acid could save many farms. Even so, rousing them from their slumber is something one should not attempt …alone.”

Sunken:
“It seems, that once again someone has dug to deep for their own good. Once the pumping station failed, water was free to accumulate in the open pit. Now, a lake sits where once a quarry stood. The water seems pure, however. Perhaps the rocks it soaks through act as a natural filter ? Maybe some group can find a use for this place ?”

Grids:

[spoiler]
Sandstone, granite, limestone:

Excavation wall: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 5-2, 4-3, 5-3
Barracks: 1-2, 2-2
Machine park: 3-2
Equipment storages: 4-2
Road: 1-3, 2-3
Slab storage: 3-3

Sunken:

Lake shore: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 1-2, 5-2, 1-3, 3-3, 4-3, 5-3
Flooded barracks: 2-2
Flooded machinery: 3-2, 2-3
Flooded shack: 4-2[/spoiler]

2.2.2 Goop / Sludge

Goop:

[spoiler]“The bottom of this quarry is occupied by a sizeable pond of goo, bubbling obscenely when exposed to sunlight. A burned patch of ground on the shore is lined with rubbery residue that slowly ‘heals’ when damaged. This could be useful, however, dabbling with such things alone doesn’t sound very reasonable.”

Grid:

Excavation wall: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 1-2, 5-2, 1-3, 5-3, 5-4, 3-5, 4-5, 5-5
Goop pond: 2-2, 3-2, 4-2, 3-3, 4-3, 4-4
Gooey shore: 2-3, 2-4, 3-4
Ruined barracks: 1-4
Road: 1-5, 2-5[/spoiler]

Sludge:

[spoiler]“The first thing about this quarry is an impromptu channel linking it with the nearby river, as if it were deliberately flooded. The second is that the water of this lake is scalding hot and gives off a faint blue light. Even though the surface ripples ever so slightly, a deposit of dark sludge swirls violently, releasing a large glob of froth from time to time. This residue has accumulated in the middle of the lake, forming an island of sorts, upon which unearthly plants sway back and forth in unison, as if trying to grasp something just out of their reach. A lot of energy is being produced here, but how to exploit it ? Might take more heads than one to figure it out…”

Grid:

Excavation wall: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 4-2, 4-4, 3-5, 4-5
River: 5-1, 5-2, 5-3, 5-4, 5-5
Boiling lake: 2-2, 3-2, 4-2, 2-3, 4-3, 2-4, 3-4, 4-4
Frothing island: 2-3
Channel: 4-3
Lake shore: 1-5, 2-5[/spoiler][/spoiler]

[b]Reached the character limit for one post - further additions are several posts below.

Currently completed sections: Outlines of facilities (apart from special facilities).
Working on looables / salvageables / enemies for the facilities I’'ve got.[/b]

o.o

[quote=“Keyreper”]i have no idea what im looking at.
o.o[/quote][quote=“FunsizeNinja123, post:2, topic:7085”]o.o[/quote]

tl;dr read the thread before shitposting

I was in shock at how much stuff this guy had. Keep your shitposting stuff somewhere else.

@Aenye
Altough I admire your depth, there could be one, effective CataDDA asset you’ve omitted in the run. You seem to work within the lines of creature spawning and expansion and seem to forget that until the cataclysm, everything was under civil and government control. This is why you can’t propose that those groups of survivors form dwellings. While eyeing your extensive, spoiler-full post there was one notable moment regarding farms and farming in particular. As you may know, you may have either active or passive approach to growing crops. For example, if (your) organization has sufficient military strength it could find a farm, establish a perimeter around it (knowing that the farm is placed somewhere in the outskirts of, how did you name them, their zone of control) and further survey for imminent dangers. Installing that sort of mindframe tells you that the organization is ready to secure the location and intercept any possible threat if the decision is made to maintain this source of food. The passive solution could perhaps serve the surivor logic slightly better - a group of typical, everyday people scavenging for all that’s left could find shelter somewhere in the wider city area and discover a farm nearby. Because the farms need to be tended to but also because they need to keep a shallow footprint due to an overwhelming (undead) opposition, they could decide to use this food resource passively - not that much different from when they are gathering food, with sporadical scouting as a measure of self-preservation.

I guess one could approach your version of Places of Interest as a tangent of “debug-menu play” to draw a few conclusions… And yes, that means experimenting to see what’s the application capable of and is it of any use - but it also envelops the “what-if” logic for those more skilled members of the company, or for that matter - the survivor group. Those in particular should define what you call radiuses; like, for example, when you wish for a vehicle from the debug menu and conform with the thought of having a (passive) mechanic NPC to find, repair and improve on the vehicle. If you manage to start thinking from that particular point you should be able to divide nearby areas around the settlement (alert range) and the true places of interest, in abandoned settlements somewhere down the road from the supposed Survivor Camps.

First of all, thanks for the detailed reply !

Let me go over your post bit by bit, as you make a lot of good points, which I would like to discuss in more detail.

Please excuse the lack of clarity in the original post. My initial assumption was that most of the crew of such facilities would be dead or long gone for greener pastures (after all, why hole up in a steel mill, when there’s no food around ?). Hence, the majority of the facilities would be abandoned …by humans at least.

As for settlements, I would expect them to form when a patchwork of hardened survivors in the area decided to team up to have a better chance at surmounting the odds. While it would be likely that some former employees of our facilities would manage to survive and join a settlement, it would be improbable to think that the population of any settlement would have a very uniform background.

Now, with abandoned facilities, these “new kids on the block” would be the ones attempting to colonise what was left. Depending on the type of facility, colonisation efforts (such as the player) could run into different situations.

These could easily involve any traces (or more) of governmental / civil control. If we take the Labs / Military bunkers as a starting point, I would propose military-level resistance (turrets / automatons / soldier-type zombies (security guards / bots ?)) for high-profile facilities (factories, prisons, universities) and police-level resistance (patrol bots / eyebots) for low-profile ones (quarries, mines). With food production facilities, small groups of NPCs (or anything that became of them) would be plausible.

Indeed, hence my overly long discussion of the “control zone” – the range in which settlements would have the gall to take the active approach. At first, this would be only a few tiles, as the world at large IS pretty intimidating for any reasonable survivor. While food would be the first priority (this could actually help determine the location of settlements quite nicely), procuring construction materials (barricades, shelters, etc.) might be a close second (therefore, it would make sense to have forest tiles be convertible to logging camps, adding another type of facility), depending on the conditions the settlement finds itself in.

No reason not to take the passive approach outside the zone, though.

Exactly ! While being more beneficial when operated, it stands to reason that a facility might be looted for short-term gains, just as you said, or even …salvaged (in some cases). This would add an interesting functionality to all of our deathmobiles – hauling huge pieces of “junk” (form an ordinary survivor’s viewpoint) equipment back to a settlement, so they could be utilised on site.

Actually, I’ve got some ideas for “lootable-only” settlement-scale and survivor-scale places of interest jotted down, but those will have to get some more love before they’re up for the job.

To be honest, I don’t have any experience with “debug-menu play” at all, so while this part is hard for me to grasp in its entirety (can you maybe refer me to a post/thread/guide ?), I (seem to) understand the reasoning behind it.

If the system idea gets approval, once could go about implementing it in two ways:

  1. Add the facilities as landmarks for looting-only purposes. After that’s done, start work on a system for the NPCs to take advantage of such places, all the while updating the facility project.

  2. Add one simple facility (farm ?) and get NPCs to work with it, then focus on expanding the variety of places that can be exploited, eventually incorporating standard map tiles to work with the system (a house is a facility in its own right after all).

From what I’ve read up, NPCs have been getting a lot of attention lately, so the second approach might be more prudent. That said, I would have to ask the people directing the work effort (Kevin ? KA101 ? I’m a newcomer to the forums, so please excuse me if my impression is wrong) to review this in terms of whether it’s: possible, worth implementing, something they would want to work on etc.

PS:

Thanks. It’s one of my jobs to be able to produce content rapidly. I enjoy Cata:DDA quite a bit, so it’s only fair that I contribute to the project if I can. If it’s concept work / descriptions / etc, feel free to direct me where needed.

There’s a lot here and I’ve been Drained from dealing with infrastructure reworks (and bugs caused thereby >:-( ) so haven’t had the chance to go over it in detail. (Which it deserves!)

I’m thinking vultures might have been speaking out of turn re everything being under government control. Martial law kicked in for three months at most. (And it was largely destroyed by the actual Cataclysm. The Troops have retreated and no longer have a central HQ on New England’s soil. It’s unknown whether Washington DC is still inhabited or functioning, but strongly implied not.) Not every facility would be under guard, and the Third Amendment would have for once been relevant.

Specifically, of course survivor groups would form settlements of various sorts. Whether the Refugee Center (presumably a repurposed building of some sort, currently exists in the experimentals), a tent city, or repurposing an existing structure, survivor groups would certainly establish various presences.

(I’m kinda partial to a trans- and post-human group operating out of a Lab, setting up farming/forestry in the area and perhaps staking a claim to any nearby lava rifts. The Old Guard might not approve of mutants damaging Government Property, though, and more so if they crack the lab notes and sow dangerous rumors among the population…)

From a partial skim, yeah, that’s a hella lot of code. But then so was the refugee center. You seem to have the idea I suggested in my line you quoted down OK–I was thinking of quests and plot-based faction development rather than hard logistics, but I’ll agree that logistics are the better call.

Keep it coming, Aenye.

That’s right - your character’s adventure start coincides with the true zero-hour. There are a number of reasons why efforts to restore order and civilization norms shouldn’t take place before it. For the immediate reader, this is kind of a jagged logic approach - I mean, not everyone’s a toddler in the Cataclysm world, and like several folks here @the_forums mentioned - maybe there are even tanks, or (well, just) abandoned military posts, or even an upgraded FEMA camp with loads and loads of juicy stash… whilst playing CataDDA all of this time, I couldn’t resist the impression that this was hardly ever the case. Being that is, it must be clear that somewhere along the time scale those “a bit advanced” settlements could benefit from fruitfull looting venues in order to have a better number of “hands-on” approaches to situation resolvement (having giant ants or fluffy mushroom beasts in your neighborhood isn’t exactly gonna be a walk in the park for any faction) and so improve on some of the key structures in their base.
What I was really thinking about when I was writing my first post in this topic was :

  • there is a number of survivor groups that still try to stay out of the harm’s way (underground?) which is a vast percentage of all;
  • other, crafty folks forming isolated compounds with strong sentry and recon levels, staying clear from a curious eye most of the time;
  • armed and combat-ready establishments with variable (one to another) sense of community-driven labor and research;
  • at the very end, roaming and scavenging bands of traders, lone looters and bandits.

Coming to a feeling where it all comes together, I can’t help but thinking about 14th century Europe - it had a dozen of severely disputed factions, and those had a common enemy more than at one point in history. There were a few areas (towns, exactly) dedicated to scientific research, arts and finer crafts than those of war. Finally, bordering regions kept their trading connections and never stopped introducing inovations from across the seas. All of those were under a constant threat of piracy and abuse.

First of all, I added the quarries section. Sorry for being so sluggish - had to make some revisions in my notes after reading through your replies. All for the better though !

Well, that and the new environment being able to take out some of the non-heavily defended spots. While I can imagine soldiers dying to defend a FEMA camp, I’m not sure a large force would defend a paper mill (or a similar, low-importance (compared to bunkers, labs etc.) facility) to the last man, especially when facing non-human horrors.

That said, some trace of the presence should remain, as vultures said - if soldiers can’t be spared, why not leave some turrets behind ? What about the companies owning those places ? Wouldn’t they also leave some “surprises” so as to deter any interlopers (which company would leave its property behind, without even trying to keep it secure for “better times” ?).

IMHO, the most realistic solution for a facility would be to have it spawn security guards / soldiers at first and have this switch over to turrets after some time and afterwards, to location specific / general monsters. Easy to say, but possibly an insanely large amount of code, without an adequate boost in gameplay quality. Once the general stuff is done, I’ll go over what can be looted from where and try to come up with reasonable spawns for the facilities. After that, I’ll be working on the quests to tie everything up together nicely.

[quote=“KA101, post:7, topic:7085”]Specifically, of course survivor groups would form settlements of various sorts. Whether the Refugee Center (presumably a repurposed building of some sort, currently exists in the experimentals), a tent city, or repurposing an existing structure, survivor groups would certainly establish various presences.

(I’m kinda partial to a trans- and post-human group operating out of a Lab, setting up farming/forestry in the area and perhaps staking a claim to any nearby lava rifts. The Old Guard might not approve of mutants damaging Government Property, though, and more so if they crack the lab notes and sow dangerous rumors among the population…)[/quote]

Exactly ! There is strength in numbers and with a group, where everyone specialises in a given task, life would be easier (and more efficient) than for a single person having to do everything. Living in a community could also give a shadow of “normality” to the survivors - IMHO quite useful for keeping their sanity.

Once cleared, a lab (non-ice one at the least) would be a perfect base for a community - water supply and some electricity, a lot of available space and one entrance that is relatively easy to defend. Pretty much like a Fallout Vault, without all that hassle with water chips. With all the bionics / mutations at their disposal, this group could not only set up a nice little settlement, but eventually build a faction around themselves. Trading with other settlements could be a bother, but such a setup would be nigh self-sufficient.

[quote=“KA101, post:7, topic:7085”]From a partial skim, yeah, that’s a hella lot of code. But then so was the refugee center. You seem to have the idea I suggested in my line you quoted down OK–I was thinking of quests and plot-based faction development rather than hard logistics, but I’ll agree that logistics are the better call.

Keep it coming, Aenye.[/quote]

IMHO the quests would virtually be at the core of the system, along with some kind of “local / global reputation”, giving the player another option when influencing the world. I’m not sure if I have the right impression when it comes to factions - how big are they actually ? They could easily come into the mix if we considder settlements to be the building blocks of factions. This opens up whole quest lines aimed at getting a settlement to join / leave a faction, with control of facilities possibly serving as part of the deal. Also, “wrest control of facility X from faction Y”, “raze their farms”, “attack settlement” and other types of quests could spice up the mix at that point…

[quote=“vultures, post:8, topic:7085”]What I was really thinking about when I was writing my first post in this topic was :

  • there is a number of survivor groups that still try to stay out of the harm’s way (underground?) which is a vast percentage of all;
  • other, crafty folks forming isolated compounds with strong sentry and recon levels, staying clear from a curious eye most of the time;
  • armed and combat-ready establishments with variable (one to another) sense of community-driven labor and research;
  • at the very end, roaming and scavenging bands of traders, lone looters and bandits.[/quote]

I agree that nobody would take unnecessary risks, but what if such groups as the first two faced resource problems ? Food you can produce, water is readily available, clothes can be made, wood for building is available, but what about the non-basic stuff ? Sure, you can scavenge a lot of it, but it will eventually run out. At that point the group would have to move to a new location (IMHO extreme risk), start producing the needed stuff or just make do without it. Group of people without any entertainment from books / mp3 players / etc sounds bound for morale problems, which might end DF-style.

The third and fourth types IMHO sound like the ones who would be actively taking over terrain, if not for production, then just to secure looting / raiding routes.

Can’t help but agree with the comparison. Wasn’t it actually the threat of piracy / brigands / marauders that made people leave for well-defended towns ?

PS: Found a survivor’s note in one of the most recent experimentals. It had the following message:

„Why would you hide in a farm? Sure, it’s isolated, but if they know where you are, you don’t exactly have cover on all sides.”

Good point here.

Aenye, that’s an amazing post and I think most of it could be implemented… and I’m sorry I don’t have more constructive feedback, it’s just it’s so much goodness in it…

2.3 Mines

[spoiler]

2.3.1 Metal mines (3 x 2 tiles, 4-10 Z-levels)

Descriptions:[spoiler]

Iron:
“Towering like a dying giant, a rusting headframe betrays the presence of this mine from afar. Being rich in iron, the soil has a distinct reddish tint, making it seem that the colossus had bled out onto the ever hungry earth below. Powerful engines, which used to hoist the elevator were abandoned and eventually stopped, shrouding the surroundings in an eerie silence. Maybe some more ore awaits to be mined ? If the mine isn’t flooded or collapsed. If no monstrosity has made it their den. If any potential miners can be found.”

Lead:
“Towering like a dying giant, a rusting headframe betrays the presence of this mine from afar. Shiny chunks of ore litter the ground, being remarkably heavy for their size. Powerful engines, which used to hoist the elevator were abandoned and eventually stopped, shrouding the surroundings in an eerie silence. Maybe some more ore awaits to be mined ? If the mine isn’t flooded or collapsed. If no monstrosity has made it their den. If any potential miners can be found.”

Uranium:
“A vast ventilation tower sits atop the entrance to this shaft and the land is peppered with radiation warning signs well beyond the perimeter of the mine itself. Even though the tower sits idly, the toxic radon gas has taught all animals to avoid this place, bringing a deathly silence to the place. Surely, nobody would dare venture underground, even if the ore that could be harvested is priceless …or would they ?”[/spoiler]

Grids:

Headframe (iron, lead) / Ventillation tower (uranium): 1-1
Shaft and emergency stairway: 2-1
Barracks and mess hall: 3-1
Ore processing and storage: 1-2
Control building: 2-2
Parking lot: 2-3

2.3.2 Mineral mines (2 x 2 tiles, 2-6 Z-levels)

Descriptions:[spoiler]

Slate:
“Hidden amongst trees, this mine consists of but a few buildings and rails disappearing into a tunnel. The carts once used to transport the raw slate have been discarded all around the tunnel entrance, huge dents implying that they were cast aside with savage force. An occasional roar can be heard from within the mine, as if its new resident wanted to warn of its presence. Should the mine be cleared and secured, production could most likely be restored.”

Gem:
“Hidden amongst trees, this mine consists of but a few buildings and rails disappearing into a tunnel. The few remaining carts indicate that in its last workingdays, the mine has struck a rich pocket of tourmaline. With enough workforce, the deposit could be excavated and be a treasure in itself – not even the monstrosities that roam the world could have expunged greed from existence and many would be willing to trade life-saving supplies for these pretty stones.”[/spoiler]

Grids:

Central building: 1-1
Mine entrance: 2-1
Mess hall and storage: 1-2
Rails and loading ramps: 2-2

2.3.3 Special “mines”

Borehole (3 x 3 tiles):

[spoiler]
“When seen from afar, this place appears to be no more than a trailer park with a penchant for order, as the vehicles were positioned in several concentric rings, hiding a circular pit away from sight. A staircase winds down into the damp darkness of the shaft and several platforms can be seen along its course, possibly being intersections with natural caverns. Although it resembles the boreholes drilled during the search for oil, the actual purpose of this pit remains a mystery. Even the name of this place, inscribed on each of the trailers - ‘XEDRA’ has a disturbing ring to it. Despite this, the dark deeps may contain immeasurable riches for any brave enough to explore them …alone ?”

Grid:

Watchtowers: 1-1, 3-1, 1-3, 3-3
Trailer rings: 2-1, 1-2, 3-2, 2-3
Borehole: 2-2[/spoiler]

Magma lake:

[spoiler]“Its buildings having turned to rubble and its once mighty headframe having collapsed into a twisted jumble of jagged metal, the place is a mine by name only. Although once lush, the vegetation here seems to have withered away and dried under the influence of constant gusts of hot air coming from the direction of the abandoned shaft. As you approach the site, tens of small lizards scuttle away from your path and several disturbingly large eggs imply that these are not the largest denizens of this area. Peeking down into the shaft, you see the burning red glow of magma not far below and are forced to cover your eyes, to save them from the burning-hot air. Although a magnificent source of heat and energy, taking advantage of this place would require a group …if such an undertaking is even possible.

Grid:

Lizard nests: 1-1, 2-1, 1-2
Shaft: 2-2
Dried vegetation: 3-1, 3-2, 3-3
Ruined buildings: 1-3, 2-3[/spoiler][/spoiler]

2.4 Universities

2.4.1 Abandoned (5 x 5 tiles):

“Dust silently settles in this former place of learning, its lectures brought to an abrupt end. The old research rule goes ‘publish or perish’, but there is not much publishing to be done anymore. Numerous footprints give some chances of the latter though… The university library sounds like a worthwhile place, even though most of the books would likely be of use only to a specialist. Some of them might be out there, in their bunkers or in towns and who knows how much would be such a collection worth to a town that has several of them ?”

Grid:

Dormitories: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1
Gym: 5-1, 5-2
Utility building: 1-2, 2-2
Courtyard: 3-2, 3-3, 3-4
Library: 4-2, 4-3, 4-4
Faculty buildings: 1-3, 5-3, 1-4, 5-4, 1-5, 2-5, 3-5, 4-5, 5-5
Canteen: 2-3, 2-4

2.4.2 Ruined (4 x 4 tiles):

“A lone building still stands amongst a sea of rubble that once was a proud campus. Most knowledge and instruments held here have long been lost to the elements, but some could still be salvaged. That is, if one were to clear the maze of broken walls and debris of the new inhabitants of New England, that roam the premises. Furthermore, the thick walls of the last remaining faculty could make it a decent base of expeditions, although securing it would likely take more than one person…”

Grid:

Ruined buildings: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 1-2, 4-2, 4-3, 4-4
Faculty building: 2-2, 3-2, 3-3
Courtyard: 1-3, 2-3, 1-4, 2-4

2.4.3 Fortified (3 x 3 tiles):

“Situated by a river, not only has this campus weathered the Cataclysm, but also turned into a venerable fortress. A sturdy palisade guards the place from random interlopers and the air smells of ozone. Even though the windows have all been boarded up, a bright glow seeps from within and faint noises of machinery running can be heard. It is unlikely that whoever lives here now would let a lone survivor inside without a fight, but an emissary and their retinue might just pique some …interest.”

Grid:

Fortified faculty towers: 1-1, 3-1, 1-3, 3-3
Fortified faculty buildings: 2-1, 1-2, 3-2, 2-3
Dome: 2-2

2.5 Power plants

2.5.1 Solar farm (3 x 2 tiles):

“Like hands reaching out from shallow graves, numerous arrays populate this concrete-laden wasteland. Their electronically controlled fingers, equipped with large area solar panels, occasionally move or turn, trying to grasp as much sunlight as possible. Its infrastructure intact, all this place needs to provide some electricity once again is some know-how and several people to operate it. Some of the smaller solar panels could be salvaged, but first one would have to avoid the numerous …reptiles basking in the sun on the warm concrete slabs.”

Grid:

Photovoltaic arrays: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1
Control building: 1-2
Battery banks: 2-2
Relay station: 3-2

2.5.2 Wind farm (5 x 1 tiles):

“Extending two lines of wind turbines along a hilltop, this wind farm was one of hundreds that provided affordable electricity to the population. Its rotors operational and turbines humming despite a lack of crew, restoring this place wouldn’t be impossible with the proper workforce. Before that, though, one would imagine having to clear the place of the legion of monstrosities that were attracted towards the constant noise…”

Grid:

Turbines: 1-1, 2-1, 4-1, 5-1
Control and relay stations: 3-1

2.5.3 Hydroelectric plant (5 x 3 tiles, Dam “building”: 2 Z-levels):

“The ‘renewable energy’ hype made places like this a common sight. Dams were constructed on most major rivers and valleys, sometimes along with entire villages, were flooded to establish water reservoirs. Save for the water flowing through the flood gates, the facility is silent, making the fate of its former workers even more disturbing, their skeletal remains being strewn all around the area. An explanation can likely be found beyond the gate to the dam interior, once reinforced steel and now pitiful scraps, barely hanging from the heavy hinges, but who would venture into the wet darkness without knowing what nightmare awaits them within ?”

Grid:

Reservoir (lake ?) shore: 1-1, 5-1
Concrete river banks: 1-3, 5-3
River: 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 2-3, 3-3, 4-3
Control building: 1-2
Dam: 2-2, 3-2, 4-2
Relay station: 5-2

2.6 Factories

[spoiler]

2.6.1 Paper mill (4 x 3 tiles)

“This paper mill has fallen into silent decrepitude – a dream of many pro-environment organisations. None of them exist anymore, probably because of the environment no longer being pro-humanity. With the electrical grid gone, restoring this place to operation would require an alternative source of power. Might be worth it, though, with fresh paper being such a rare commodity these days. The machines themselves could also find some use, particularly the giant press rolls…”

Grid:

Pulp silos: 1-1, 1-2
Bleaching vat: 2-1
Press machines: 3-1, 4-1
Barracks: 2-2
Maintenance building: 3-2
Drying units: 4-2
Road: 1-3, 2-3
Paper (rolls) storage: 3-3, 4-3

2.6.2 Iron works (4 x 4 tiles)

“Visible from afar thanks to two towering blast furnaces, these iron works are no longer the scene of the epic performance of sparks and molten metal. Although being technically operational, supplying these beasts with quantities of ore, coal and limestone sufficient to sate their perpetual hunger would be nigh impossible for all but the most resourceful groups out there. With that in mind, the extermination of all the monstrosities that dwell within the facility seems almost plausible.”

Grid:

Ore storage: 1-1, 2-1
Coal storage: 3-1, 3-2
Puddling furnaces: 4-1
Train tracks (/road): 1-2
Cargo terminal (/road depot): 2-2
Flux storage: 4-2
Steel & alloy containment: 1-3, 1-4
Control building: 2-3
Conveyor belts (storage to furnaces): 3-3, 3-4
Barracks: 4-3
Blast furnace: 2-4, 4-4

2.6.3 Fishing depot (3 x 2 tiles)

“Reports of distorted fish roaming the land were a popular urban legend before the acid rains. Turns out, there is a grain of truth in every legend – this abandoned fishing depot is teeming with creatures straight from nightmarish tales about the Deep Ones. The water seems calm, but for all you know, legions upon legions of this enemy unknown to man, could be lurking just under the surface. Amazingly the boats and nets seem to be intact, as if tempting you to face the terrors from the deep on the quest for food. Before that, though, one would need to bring apocalypse to the contingent that holds this land in their fins.”

Grid:

Warehouses: 1-1, 1-2
River: 2-1
Derelict trawler(s): 3-1
Pier: 2-2, 3-2

2.6.4 Cement works (4 x 4 tiles)

“Although surrounded by a forest, this facility is encircled by a wide strip of off-white soil completely devoid of vegetation or any other organic matter. Within this circle, numerous skeletal beings roam, their clothing little more than rags, as if devoured by acid …or, judging by the large cement kiln, by a strong base. Indeed, the cement storage has collapsed, spilling tonnes of its alkaline content onto the ground. With the other buildings seemingly operational, the plant could produce cement and, by the looks of it, even concrete, once again. That is, if one got rid of the monsters, found a way to protect themselves from the fine mist of alkaline dust and had access to sources of limestone and fuel.”

Grid:

Water tanks: 1-1, 1-2
Control building: 2-1
Concrete plant: 3-1
Mixer: 4-1
Maintenance sheds and machine park: 2-2
Concrete truck terminal: 3-2
Cement kilns: 4-2, 4-3
Destroyed cement storage: 1-3, 1-4
Barracks: 2-3
Road: 3-3, 3-4
Coal storage: 2-4
Limestone storage: 4-4[/spoiler]

2.6.5 Logging camp (3 x 3 tiles)

“Easy to set up and easy to disassemble, this logging camp seems to have reached its ultimate destination. Even though the lumberjacks can be seen from afar, stumbling around empty-handed, as if in a daze, no axes strike and no chainsaws bite into the massive trunks of the surrounding trees. Much like the whole world, logs have been stacked neatly and left to rot. A lot of the material could still be salvaged and a dedicated workforce might even be able to reclaim the camp. Hell, had the Cataclysm not made them all seem like jokes, one could even tell ghost stories to their dead kids while roasting marshmallows in a campfire.”

Grid:

Log stacks: 1-1, 2-1, 1-2, 1-3
Utility / tool sheds: 3-1
Barracks: 2-2, 2-3
Forest path / dirt road: 3-2, 3-3

2.7 Prisons

[spoiler]

2.7.1 Abandoned (4 x 4 tiles):

[spoiler]

“This monument to the veracity of the ‘perfect society’, the media were always going on about, has withstood the Cataclysm without as much as a dent on its powerful walls. Even though no living human remains within, the guards keep on patrolling and the inmates vent their impotent rage against the unyielding steel bard of their cells. This facility could become an excellent stronghold, but it needs a Judge. Dreadful of a task as it might be, the prison has waited for far too long and one needs to administer either amnesty or the death penalty.”

Grid:

Watchtowers: 1-1, 4-1, 1-4, 4-4
Gatehouse: 2-1
Armoury: 3-1
Fortified walls and secure storage: 1-2, 4-2
Warden’s offices: 2-2
Barracks: 3-2
Cell blocks: 1-3, 4-3, 2-4, 3-4
Courtyard: 2-3, 3-3[/spoiler]

2.7.2 Fortified (5 x 4 tiles):

“Testament to its name, this maximum security prison is a formidable fortress. Sandbag walls and makeshift outposts line the roofs of its outer walls and searchlights sweep the perimeter at night. Whoever or whatever lives beyond these walls is organised and, if the scorch marks surrounding the facility are any indication, well-armed. Judging by the numerous humanoid corpses, a lone wanderer shall be shot on sight – in this wasteland you will need a group to be worth talking to…”

Grid:

Watchtowers: 1-1, 5-1, 1-4, 5-4
Cell blocks: 2-1, 3-1, 1-2, 1-3
Fortified walls and secure storage: 4-1, 5-3
Courtyard: 2-2, 3-2, 4-2, 2-3
Fortified gate: 5-2
Barracks: 3-3, 4-3
Warden’s offices: 2-4
Armoury: 3-4, 4-4[/spoiler]

2.7.3 Test subject “farm” (3 x 3 tiles, Dome “building” 2-5 Z-levels):

“Just before the Cataclysm, there was a media blitz on the new network of supermax prisons based on the design of the infamous ‘White Swan’ facility, but that was supposed to be nothing more than a rumour. Standing before the gargantuan walls, lined with scores of operational turrets and a gate that makes most blast doors seem flimsy, gives a different perspective on the matter. Just above the walls, a giant dome, lined with solar panels, covers the entire courtyard with an impenetrable veil, making it seem that the facility was designed to keep intruders outside rather than keep the inmates inside… ”

Grid:

Monolith walls: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 1-2, 3-2, 1-3, 3-3
Dome: 2-2
Massive blast gate: 2-3

2.7.4 Raider stronghold (5 x 5 tiles):

“Its walls sputtered with rotting remains and its buildings echoing with an array of screams, this prison is surrounded by putrid mountains of corpses, thrown away along with other trash. While its exterior populated by swarms of scavengers, feral and ‘natural’ alike, feasting on the detritus, the interior of the facility is the home to a pack of survivors, who have taken to ‘aggressive expansion’ or simply put, raiding other settlements. Even though its gates occasionally spout a column of mismatched vehicles, security is anything but lax – any creatures that stray too close to the walls soon become food for their more cautious companions. One could purge this den of villainy, but the raiders might also be looking for new recruits – the decision is yours.”

Grid:

Watchtowers: 1-1, 5-1, 1-5, 5-5
Fortified walls and secure storage: 2-1, 1-2, 1-4, 2-5
Cell blocks: 3-1, 4-1, 5-2, 5-3, 5-4, 2-5, 3-5
Armoury: 2-2, 2-4
Barracks: 3-2, 3-4
Internal Courtyard: 4-2, 4-3, 4-4
Despoiled gate: 1-3
Courtyard: 2-3
Courtyard gatehouse and isolation: 3-3

Following sections in progress:

3. Facilities - looting

3.1 New items

3.2 New recipes / concepts

3.2.1 Harvesting

Using a sickle / scythe / other cutting implement, the PC should be able to cut down either crops (for the respective items) or grass (for hay), reverting a tile to a dirt tile to be ploughed / seeded.

What use is there for hay ? Well, the simplest option is to use it as a natural fertiliser (that has to ferment of course) for your other plants. It could also be used as feed for animals (is livestock gets implemented of course) or sold as a resource to settlements.

AFAIK, the current farming system lets you harvest your crops by examining - this limits the PC to harvesting grown crops, so a grassy tile would have to be ‘harvested’ via the apply tool sequence -> tools with “harvesting quality” ?

3.3 Loot tables (updating frequently)

Disclaimer: The tables show what types of loot could be found at any given location - most likely only a (semi-randomly chosen) fraction of those should be generated in any instance of a facility.

3.3.1 Abandoned farms (Normal, Barren, Fertile)

Loot:
Chicken cage (empty), Egg basket, Chicken egg, Hoe, Trowel, Rake, Spade, Pitchfork, Groats

Harvestable {required tool}:
Barley, Corn cob, Oats, Wheat, Rye, Buckwheat {scythe / sickle / cutting tools}
Barley seeds, Corn seeds, Wheat seeds, Rye seeds, Buckwheat seeds, Potatoes, Potato sprouts
Chicken {Chicken cage}

Salvageable:
Vehicles: Farm tractor, Wheelbarrow, Seeder, Planter, Spreader, Sprayer, Baler

Disassembly {components}:
Plough {Plough blade, Steel frame}

Quest section was added and is being updated on page three of this thread due to post size limitations.

Thank you ! Once I get over the outlines of each of the facilities and their general “seups”, I’ll focus on their function of interest as sites to be looted + some proposals of new items and recipes and move on to specific spawns and game flavours. From there I would like to go into looting-only places for settlements and development of settlements themselves, but that’s a long way away for now.

The primary problem I’ve got is my poor programming skills, so I’d love to get some directions as to what can be coded, what is worth being coded (effort vs gain) and whether anyone would be intrested in actually giving the project a shot…

That’s… a lot of stuff. Well thought out and written, but possibly a bit advanced for the state of the games NPC/faction system.

Thanks ! Indeed, I’m writing the stuff “in full”, to provide a vision for the whole system, but if it were to be implemented, a “small step” policy would have to be adopted.

Unfortunately I’m not a programmer (well, I did a tiny bit in C++, but that’s nothing compared to the json/lua stuff I’ve seen here), so working out the concepts is all I can do, isn’t it ? That said, if anyone could tell me what non-programming work I can do to help implement this, I’d be much obliged.

PS: Updated the “Universities” and “Power plants” sections - sorry for being so slow lately - things have been kind of hectic at work.

Certainly evocative descriptions there. You might consider getting onto Git and helping proofread: we can always use more folks cleaning up the typos and optimizing text strings.

I like uni buildings as salvage targets and base sites. Plenty of room and likely some facilities. Bonus if you manage to get one of those military generators installed.

Power plants would be VERY quest-based, as we’ve neither the time nor the processing capacity to simulate actual power grids. (And wind turbines should safety-cut-out in the Cataclysm.) Basically, most we’d have would be the PC doing a few fairly harrowing* quests, and X other locations now have power.

*Activating wind turbines will require going up on top of the thing(s). Solar may involve those focused-reflector setups where if you’re still fixing the generator when it gets Sunny out, you’re gonna be fried in about 5-10 turns. Hydro dam, well, Fish mutations may be handy to clear out a turbine blockage and get out intact.

Thanks ! I made a Git account, forked Cata and am getting used to how things work around there - is there any tutorial on what to check and how to file the PRs properly ?

Unis might also have some pretty interesting machines - particularly places dealing with materials science, but any physics / chemistry faculties should be …worthwhile (I’ve got some stuff jotted down for the looting / salvaging section). Generators would be lovely for providing loads of power - for powering individual machines / facilities, while the roofs could be covered with solar panels for the ‘energy-efficient needs’, such as lights / fridges / electric stoves.

The power grid would most likely be down shortly after the Cataclysm anyway → acid rains + tremors + nobody to run the facilities. The quests should indeed be rather harsh, as having electricity would be a tremendous boon upon any town / settlement. Will have to work out the numbers to see how much each type of powerplant could do. Makes for a lot of quests, though.

Might be just me, but a defunct turbine could become a nice roost for some birdfolk. Oh yes, I love the idea of having solar-fried survivors ! That, or if the PC decides to ally with raiders, there could be a possibility of blowing the dam up and “going gangsta” on everything downstream with a sudden flood. We might use some nightmares to flesh out the places…

PS: Added factories. Will finish the prisons and go over to the looting section for a bit.

OK. Our contributing-page is generally the first place I ask folks to check up, and use the Git tutorials as well. If those are confusing, our IRC can be a good spot for help. We all started somewhere, so we try not to bite too hard.

Factories generally look Impressive. One issue is that DDA doesn’t have a coastline nor an Ocean, so no place for a shipyard, fishery, or Devil’s Reef.

Apart from that disappointing problem, looks Nifty.

I have to catch my breath for a moment, having a really fun time climbing over your walls of text.

But seriously, your ideas are great, Aenye. I’d help out if I knew more code.

I like this suggestion and because I do everyone should to.

I agree that the buildings seem really well thought out. Can’t wait to see at least one of them in-game.