"Pitch Black" light level?

[voskhod]

As it currently stands, the darkest possible light level in Cataclysm’s experimental builds is “Very Dark”, and there’s kind of a problem with that in terms of immersion. “Very Dark” levels of light are the same above-ground as they are below-ground. Meaning that being in an underground laboratory, bunker, or missile silo with absolutely zero light-sources is the same light level as a starry night with a full moon. Realistically, there should be a light level even lower than “Very Dark”, which I’d suggest be called “Pitch Black”.
This light level would only be achievable in underground locations, and differs from “Very Dark” in two major ways:
1: Your sight is gone. Being in “Pitch Black” light levels is the equivalent of being blindfolded / blinded by a stun grenade. Unless you have a light source, you have to navigate by sound and touch alone - as would realistically be the case.
2: Night-vision mutations / perks don’t help mitigate the above. Only infrared vision allows you to see anything in pitch black light. (Maybe there could also be an additional perk added - Echolocation - that allows a person to see in pitch black environments like a bat?)

Thoughts?

[Coolthulhu]

It would be lot of work to make total darkness blindness work.
There is no map memory in DDA and that is required for good blindness mechanic.

[kevin.granade]

The first cut of the lighting overhaul last year actually had this, but Coolthulu and Rivet talked me out of it because of the lack of map memory, it would be basically impossible to navigate without a few additional features, at a minimum a mechanic for being able to get feedback when you bump into things.

[voskhod]

Fair enough. But could we at least make it so that all of the night-vision mutations are rendered effectively useless when underground? ie: only 3x3 shroud of visibility centered around the character, the same as if they had no night-vision mutations at all.

[Coolthulhu]

But could we at least make it so that all of the night-vision mutations are rendered effectively useless when underground?

Underground vision is one of the primary uses of night vision, though. Realistically, some light would bleed into basements from the stairs.

Also, lab navigation with 3x3 vision is tedious (due to lack of map memory).

[jcd]

Also, lab navigation with 3x3 vision is tedious (due to lack of map memory).

I only do this for very deep ice labs right now… But on that case, this is the point where i would start making sketches of the mapped layout (aka hand-crafted map memory) for all labs!

[voskhod]

[quote=“voskhod, post:4, topic:11696”]But could we at least make it so that all of the night-vision mutations are rendered effectively useless when underground?

Underground vision is one of the primary uses of night vision, though. Realistically, some light would bleed into basements from the stairs.

Also, lab navigation with 3x3 vision is tedious (due to lack of map memory).[/quote]

I dont understand. Shouldn’t the player be punished for doing something as stupid as exploring a pitch-black underground laboratory without so much as even bringing a flashlight and some batteries?

[Coolthulhu]

Shouldn’t the player be punished for doing something as stupid as exploring a pitch-black underground laboratory without so much as even bringing a flashlight and some batteries?

Certainly not with tedium.
More danger can be a punishment, but labs don’t have much hard to avoid danger that doesn’t shine anyway. Pretty much only the secubots are both invisible in darkness and seriously dangerous.

[jcd]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:8, topic:11696”]Certainly not with tedium.
More danger can be a punishment, but labs don’t have much hard to avoid danger that doesn’t shine anyway. Pretty much only the secubots are both invisible in darkness and seriously dangerous.[/quote]
I 've met Hulks in there. These are pretty dangerous too.

But the point stands.

[Straume21]

The best bet is probably to include this mechanic in the game as a mod, as I doubt that the majority of players would prefer such a rigid light/dark system that would cause their Night Vision trait to be worthless underground, but some probably would.

The trouble would be getting someone to mod it in, as tampering with such fundamental game mechanics in a mod without a shitload of bugs is probably going to be a bit of a task.

[kevin.granade]

As it turns out it’s really simple, all you have to do is change the value of one number.

[Rama_Tut]

There’s a colour darker than pitch-black too: eigengrau.

[hobophobic]

This as well; http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/283562/scientists-discover-color-darker-than-black/

Is it impossible for map memory to be added? I think a map memory which only draws walls that you have seen or touched while blind would work perfectly. Instead of getting feedback from trying to walk into a wall, you just automatically reveal all three tiles of wall next to you as soon as you step onto the tile next to them. This makes sense, because a person wandering about in total darkness would naturally have their outstretched arms reaching about in front of them. Revealing the contents of regular tiles in darkness would still require you to step on or examine the tile.

To add to this, there could also be a perception check so you don’t always discover wall tiles and bump into them anyway, causing minor pain and damage.

To make things even more challenging, this memory could slowly deteriorate, either over time or by setting a limit on many floors or rooms you can have stored.

Realistically, some light would bleed into basements from the stairs.

Realistically, I’d say pretty much every home basement I’ve ever seen has windows. However, without any streetlights or anything else of that nature, it would still be pretty much impossible to navigate on an overcast night. Some people also stuff insulation into these windows so it’s pretty dark down there even during the day.
Labs and mines are another story though. The mines would be pitch black by the second level considering you have to take a two story lift just to get to the first actual mine floor. Not very much light would be making it down to floor two here either with how many walls there blocking any paths.

Anyways, this post is getting pretty long but one more quick slightly related thing, there seems to be a bug right now with light bleeding through walls. Any time bright light touches a wall, it will be visible from the other side. This is a common sight in labs but mostly annoying for anyone trying to lightproof the inside of their vehicle.

[kevin.granade]

Agreed basements would usually be very dimly lit, caves and such would be the major “utter darkness” areas.

The bleeding effect is a known issue if the cell-based lighting model we have. The problem is we have no way at the moment to determine if light hitting a wall should be visible to the plyer.