Kickstarter Thread - The Kickstarter is being fulfilled

[GalenEvil]

Next update: tonight, monday was hectic and forgot to write it >.< Have other things I need to deal with before I can sit down and write the dev diary.
JSONification is complete AFAIK as of about 20 minutes ago. I accidentally broke the hell out of save compatabilities for a bit and had to hunt bugs, also random other bugs that I will share later It is not specifically part of the Mod Manager, but is necessary for the Mod Manager to be usable in any major capacity. Testing begins on JSONized inclusions today. Hopefully that will go well and I can get going on shuffling the UI about and getting it into a menu location.

[youtoo]

@galenevil: i am very happy with the quality of work I got for my kickstarter payment. We all owe you a big thank you for taking this on. We should all be pleased with your productivity. Especially considering you are working for chicken scratch. I hope down the road you can use this to help market your contracting skills.

I have worked in IT for 14 years as a DBA. No application is perfect, but the way this many part time enthusiasts work together is very impressive.

[gamut]

The World Factory and Mod Manager - Right now, you do generate a single basic world depending on the mode you've chosen, and that world exists until you destroy it - but we can do a whole lot more than that. With this tool, you'll be able to manage multiple worlds at the same time, and when you generate a world you'll be able to tweak settings, pull in mods created by other players, and share your world with others in a conveniently packaged form. How cool is that, right? Think zombies are dumb? Replace them all with dinosaurs. It's that simple.

Is this already in? How can multiple worlds be managed?

Where from can we pull-in mods created by other players? How can mods be packaged and shared? Is this some kind of internet based service for hosting mods? Is it supposed to be accessible from game settings menu or separate application?

[GalenEvil]

[quote=“gamut, post:283, topic:1854”]

The World Factory and Mod Manager - Right now, you do generate a single basic world depending on the mode you’ve chosen, and that world exists until you destroy it - but we can do a whole lot more than that. With this tool, you’ll be able to manage multiple worlds at the same time, and when you generate a world you’ll be able to tweak settings, pull in mods created by other players, and share your world with others in a conveniently packaged form. How cool is that, right? Think zombies are dumb? Replace them all with dinosaurs. It’s that simple.

Is this already in? How can multiple worlds be managed?

Where from can we pull-in mods created by other players? How can mods be packaged and shared? Is this some kind of internet based service for hosting mods? Is it supposed to be accessible from game settings menu or separate application?[/quote]

Not quite in yet. Will be getting that brought up to speed with the mainline (World Factory specifically, Mod Manager just needs finished and integration with WF) by midweek. Multiple worlds will be managed through a main menu option where you can Create, Delete, or Reset worlds as you desire. World creation at its core will be picking a name for it as well as some basic options. Once the Mod Manager is integrated you will also be able to choose mods for that world to use while playing. Deleting a world is rather straight forward, and will fully remove the world from your system. Resetting the world will delete any characters from the world as well as removing the map files from it so that it can be generated fresh from the parameters set during initial world generation. As far as I know we do not yet have a server to store mods for distribution. That is probably because the actual format for mods has not yet been finalized. I hope that we eventually get something like DFFD going as a point of access, but in the interim it will likely be personally hosted mod packages via dropbox, mediafire, or any of the other numerous file hosting sites.

[gamut]

So we will be able to replace zombies with dinosaurs. Do you have more examples what else could it be useful for?

Beside monster type, will other or all monster properties be modifiable from that menu? Is it specific only to monster definitions or is it some kind of general JSON editor able to modify parameters in any other JSON as well?

[GalenEvil]

As far as CORE mods go, I think that once we kill the remaining hardcoded monster references in the code making them all into dinosaurs on a whim should be possible. For additional functionality it would partially take the burden off of the mainline as far as including modifications that are extraneous while still allowing easy additions and modifications of included JSON compatible definitions (anything that is already included in the data/json directory). What I’d like to be able to do since we make use of a flags system is to have specific available flags able to be toggled during world generation to influence the final loaded data, as well as use the monster categories to generate functionality similar to the Classic Zombie Mode that we already have available. JSON editing will still need to be done in an outside text editor, or through CataModder once it is able to generate acceptable entries for everything. The primary purpose of this is to act in a similar manner to other games’ mod selection systems while allowing additional customization parameters during World Gen. I’d like to include specific building and map extra weightings but that may need to be added at a later date since the current framework makes doing so difficult and we are already in a sort of time crunch. That may become available during the reworks necessary to get Z-Levels working to their fullest potentials, but it is not a definite outcome.

At the current state, if one were to edit the monster json descriptions and some underlying parameters without changing the actual monster IDs for zombie-entities they could indeed become Dinosaurs very easily. There are just a lot of monitem definitions, as well as other hardcoded references to “mon_whatever” that are present throughout the codebase not dealt with during the initial move from fully hardcoded to JSON defined monsters.

[gamut]

So to replace zombies with dinosaurs will not be possible with either World Factory or Mod Manager, it would require JSON files to be edited manually. But the Kickstarter says that’s exactly what we will be able to do, in fact it’s the only example why would anyone want to use it. How come it was decided to throw out that functionality? What else then are those features useful for?

[GlyphGryph]

No, what was described in the Kickstarter was being able to make the mods (by editing the jsons, which doesn’t involve touching any code, just telling the game what you want) and being able to download mods, and then being able to choose which of those preset mods you want to play with for a given world.

Why would you want to go through all the work of making all those dinosaurs when someone else has done it for you? And if you are willing to go through all the work, there’s not really a way to shortcut that other than “going through all the work”. There was no editor described here (and we’re lucky to have an editor in development for those who want it, but it’s a convenience rather than any actual added functionality).

I will be hoping to get up a web-based mod archive (with ratings and rankings and categories and stuff) soon, and that people will come up with plenty of fun modifications for the game.

[gamut]

It can not make mods, you need to manually edit JSON files just as before. Correct?

It can not “pull-in” mods, you need to manually download just as before. Correct?

It can not package or share mods, you need to do it manually just as before. Correct?

It can only select mods you have already downloaded or edited manually. Correct?

[i2amroy]

So to replace zombies with dinosaurs will not be possible with either World Factory or Mod Manager, it would require JSON files to be edited manually. But the Kickstarter says that’s exactly what we will be able to do, in fact it’s the only example why would anyone want to use it. How come it was decided to throw out that functionality? What else then are those features useful for?

Replacing zombies with dinosaurs in a single click is only impossible for the mod’s creator. Once the mod is created anyone who downloads it and drops it into the folder will be able to toggle it on/off at will. Here’s the total process for creating/using a mod:

1. The mod creator edits the json or other files.
2. The mod creator “packages” those files as a mod through the manager and uploads them somewhere for download (this will eventually be a linked site managed by us)
3. Other players (that’s you!) download those mod folders and drop them in a specified area.
4. Those players are then able to toggle on/off mods with a single switch in the mod manager menu.

The only person who actually has to do any sort of editing is the mod’s creator, which makes sense; somebody has to create the mods after all, you can’t just expect them to materialize from nowhere.

[i2amroy]

[quote=“GlyphGryph”]We have been having a persistent troll problem in this thread - if you have been directed to this post, it is probably because he is posting, probably about Metal Gear Solid mod. DO NOT RESPOND, it is a trap. Instead, read the following to understand the situation.

[spoiler=Spamming Bandodge Troll details]
The person posting the mod is a long-time anti-C:DDA troll. He was active on the Cataforums for a while, and used that time to constantly insult everyone and demand we include his code in mainline but he refused to actually work with anyone and his code was terrible. We finally included a line of it, as he insisted… and he responded by calling us thieves and insisting we remove it and basically flipped his shit, saying he owned all the code and we were all retards and we weren’t allowed to use his stuff. He’s been banned from bay12 going on 30 or 40 times now or so, and has basically hurled abuse at everybody including Toady. He’s also been banned from Kickstarter (where he promptly created a second account) and the Cataclysm forums (about 20 times). His general approach to convincing people (though he varies, he’s adopting one of his “nicer” approaches today) is to call everyone retards for playing CDDA and not playing his mod instead, and then writing poems about how awesome he is.

His mod is buggy as hell and he often claims it has a virus in it (but I don’t think it does).

He hounded the MAME project for like 5 years, eventually stealing a bunch of their stuff and selling it under his own name, until they took legal action to get it taken down. He still makes money off his “mame tool” although not much, and basically everyone hates him there. He previously enacted a trolling campaign against a Microsoft working group and some other company I forget as well.

People have tried reasoning with him, arguing with him, accepting him, listening to him, and ignoring him. None of this will make him go away or stop causing trouble, but the last one is the one that allows the thread to continue with the least impact, so please do that one.
[/spoiler][/quote]

[system]

Haha, wow, it’s like the John Galt of trolling. Or Nietzche’s Ubermensch (Ubertroll?).

[Rivet]

The word you’re looking for is definitely untermensch.

[system]

The word you’re looking for is definitely untermensch.

I was about to correct you, but then I thought, wait, what if I see what he did there, so I googled untermensch and SURE ENOUGH I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE +1

[Shadowdarke]

"If we go with 1 z-level is equivalent to 2 meters in height, and we say gravity is set to Earth gravity of ~9.8 meters per second per second, the per tick acceleration would be somewhere close to 75-100 z-levels per tick per tick.

How long is a tick? To get those figures, there would have to be 3.9 to 4.5 seconds per tick.

[GalenEvil]

Yeah, I flubbed the end result a little since I didn’t have it in front of me. 1 tick is 6 seconds.

[i2amroy]

Personally I tend to figure about 2.5 - 3 meters for z-level height, since that is the approximate height of 1 story in the real world (10 ft - ~2 feet of ceiling/floor).

[GlyphGryph]

Remember, though - if it’s better for gameplay we should do that no matter how unrealistic it is (for example, to give them the opportunity to do things like fire as they fall and grab onto nearby ledges as they fly past, the fastest they could fall is 1 z-level per turn. And I’m okay with that.)

[Leper]

Perhaps if a compromise needs to be reached it could be along the lines of the parkour trait letting you grab onto things as you go past a lot easier, etc.
Mutations, CBMs, traits, stats, and skills could all influence these things.

There might not be any need for a compromise though, and if that’s the case just ignore this post.

[Binky]

As much as I think ‘realism’ in cataclysm is important to make it a true survival game, I definitely feel it should be one 1 level per turn. However, you could perhaps randomly ‘skip’ a z-level or two on your way down to give a better sense of actually falling (this would also help with tall buildings)? This could be done with a message signal, or could just be a sort of ‘given’ I suppose.