Crossbows missing rabbits

[pingpong]

Grab a Ganz Rastung, you’ll be missing rabbits in no time.

[Whitelight]

Yeah running 0.7 here and with rather average stats (10 dex 10 perception) and one arm encumbrance with 14 archery and 3 firearms…

Point blank shots with crossbows are grazing at best and the Ganz wont hit any wildlife… even if I am right on top of them. I understand that archery was really powerful before but it seems to me that a lot of it was with a particular class of weapons being to strong, bows and rifles, and headshots occurring too frequently. The nerf, on the other hand, seems to have been completely across the board so although the reflex recurve + metal arrows feels “just about right,” the xbows cant even hit the broad side of a barn on the first shot.

Now if this is the “intentional” state of things and my stats are just particularly poor for it or something then forgive me for complaining in my first post here on the forum. I intended my character more for melee (14 str) anyway but there are just some enemies that I am unable to take on this way (turrets, copbots, shockers). I can’t speak for regular guns, however, since I have not really used and since the ranged nerf.

[Jotun]

[quote=“Whitelight, post:2, topic:2280”]Yeah running 0.7 here and with rather average stats (10 dex 10 perception) and one arm encumbrance with 14 archery and 3 firearms…

Point blank shots with crossbows are grazing at best and the Ganz wont hit any wildlife… even if I am right on top of them. I understand that archery was really powerful before but it seems to me that a lot of it was with a particular class of weapons being to strong, bows and rifles, and headshots occurring too frequently. The nerf, on the other hand, seems to have been completely across the board so although the reflex recurve + metal arrows feels “just about right,” the xbows cant even hit the broad side of a barn on the first shot.

Now if this is the “intentional” state of things and my stats are just particularly poor for it or something then forgive me for complaining in my first post here on the forum. I intended my character more for melee (14 str) anyway but there are just some enemies that I am unable to take on this way (turrets, copbots, shockers). I can’t speak for regular guns, however, since I have not really used and since the ranged nerf.[/quote]

As I understand it, accuracy stems far more from skill with the weapon now than from anything else, stats no longer seem to give bonuses to accuracy.

Also, from playing a few seconds with my crossbow, it’s leveling up my firearms, not my archery, so perhaps you are trying to shoot with only level 3 proficiency, not level 14?

[i2amroy]

The difference is that now you are no longer to get negative dispersion by having high stats or skills. This didn’t make any sense at all since it meant that you were effectively shooting better then the weapon physically could. The end result ended up actually being a small buff to lower level players, while being a major nerf to higher ones. You can now no longer spend all your days headshotting with an inaccurate weapon, you need an accurate one to do so. I will agree that some of the weapons (such as crossbows) may need a bit of a further rebalance, but a large part of this is here to stay; some of the best handguns now are going to be those that are most accurate, not those that are the most damaging.

To go a little bit more into the technical side, zero is now the new “perfect accuracy”. Therefore if you have at least a PER and DEX of 12, then you should have a zero dispersion contribution from your stats. That means that the only things contributing to you missing are the weapon you are wielding and any encumbrance penalties/recoil penalties. Also the new system was zeroed to be approximately identical on an “average” character (8 DEX, 8 PER, 4 in both skills used). Characters below this level in skill ended up receiving a buff, players above this level a nerf.

[Jotun]

Ahh that explains it, I did notice all weapons had a dispersion stat and that some of them were pretty inaccurate. I’ve been picking things with low dispersion.

It’d be nice if we had some indicator of hit likelihood before we shoot.

[Whitelight]

I thought crossbows used archery and firearms just like bows? If not then what is the 2nd skill they use besides firearms?

[kevin.granade]

I’m planning on overhauling the aiming interface soon, and I’ll be giving feedback on what you think your hit chance is.

Something you may not be aware of here is that large weapons (defined by volume) have a “minimum effective range”, to represent it being more difficult to adjust your aim quickly to account for your target moving. So with a Ganz-Rustung, it’s just as hard to hit something at point-bank range as it is at 13 squares. It’s an especially poor combination, since it’s not all that accurate, AND it’s very bulky. Where the Ganz-Rustung shines (theoretically at least) is long-range shots at large targets, being capable of inflicting heavy damage. Now that I dig into the code, it doesn’t seem like it adjusts for size… need to fix that.

The minimum effective distance gives a niche to small weapons like pistols and SMGs, which should actually function now that skill-based accuraccy isn’t zeroing out weapon accuracy. Also shotguns get an exception, they’re just fine at close range. The regular crossbow should be significantly better, with half the intrinsic inaccuraccy, and a minimum effective range of two squares.

Crossbows use firearms and archery for firing accuracy, but that’ll be changing to firearms/rifle as soon as I get around to it. You get a small benefit for all ranged weapons for levels in firearms, and a large benefit from whatever the category-specific skill is.

[darth_servo]

To go a little bit more into the technical side, zero is now the new “perfect accuracy”. Therefore if you have at least a PER and DEX of 12, then you should have a zero dispersion contribution from your stats. That means that the only things contributing to you missing are the weapon you are wielding and any encumbrance penalties/recoil penalties. Also the new system was zeroed to be approximately identical on an “average” character (8 DEX, 8 PER, 4 in both skills used). Characters below this level in skill ended up receiving a buff, players above this level a nerf.

It seems like the system still needs some tweaking: With 10 Dex, 10 Per, 8 Archery skill, and 2 encumberance, using a Longbow and field point wood arrows, I missed a wolf that was between 6-10 squares away for 17 shots straight. I was only able to shoot him accurately when he was within 3-5 squares. It took 3 arrows to bring him down, with the killing shot being a headshot from the adjacent square.

[kevin.granade]

Those are mediocre stats, so there’s a degree of inaccuracy there, and is that a “field point arrow”, or a “fletched field point arrow”?
If it’s the former I expect you to hardly be able to hit anything since it has no fletching.

[KA101]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:9, topic:2280”]Those are mediocre stats, so there’s a degree of inaccuracy there, and is that a “field point arrow”, or a “fletched field point arrow”?
If it’s the former I expect you to hardly be able to hit anything since it has no fletching.[/quote]

Huh? Default stat is 8, and I’d understood that as the human norm. Is 10 the norm after all?

[i2amroy]

Huh? Default stat is 8, and I’d understood that as the human norm. Is 10 the norm after all?

What he’s saying is that the average human (or even slightly above average human) will still be contributing some inaccuracy to the targeting. 8 is still average, but even above average != perfect aim.

[darth_servo]

[quote=“KA101, post:10, topic:2280”]Huh? Default stat is 8, and I’d understood that as the human norm. Is 10 the norm after all?

What he’s saying is that the average human (or even slightly above average human) will still be contributing some inaccuracy to the targeting. 8 is still average, but even above average != perfect aim.[/quote]

Even with mediocre stats, is 8 skill considered mediocre skill? The way it is now, 8 stats with 4 Throwing skill and a rock > 10 stats with 8 Archery skill and arrows that require some skill to craft.

[Oragepoilu]

Maybe it’s just throwing that is way too much op.
And because throwing is always the same cost of time, you can get over 600 volume inventory while being able to do a headshot to a squirel at 10 square range.

[i2amroy]

Even with mediocre stats, is 8 skill considered mediocre skill? The way it is now, 8 stats with 4 Throwing skill and a rock > 10 stats with 8 Archery skill and arrows that require some skill to craft.

No, 8 is considered very skilled (generally 10 is what we balance for as “highest skill possible”).

And yeah, a lot of this is because there still needs to be a little bit more balance on ranged weapons and that throwing hasn’t had any balance at all applied to it yet.

[Whitelight]

I have used them a bit more since my last post and with over 20 archery but only 3 firearms I am not really hitting much of anything with the Ganz at various distances. Is it a flaw with the Ganz itself or the wood bolts? Having better bolts would probably hep but all I can ever craft is wood… at least with arrows we can do better and more accurate ones eventually. The problem isnt as bad with the vanilla crossbow but the repeating and the ganz miss a lot with the repeating doing a lot of grazing hits at best.

For the record, this time around my character is 14 str 14 dex 8 int 10 (+2 from diamond cornea) perception. I know archery is way too easy to raise as is but does it actually even effect the accuracy of your shots at all atm cause it seems that 20 or more points in it should lead to some pretty reliable hits if it does? If accuracy only relies on firearms then it would all make sense as my characters are unarmed centric and only resort to ranged weaponry in melee unfavorable situations (shockers, bots, turrets).

Edit: For the record, I kept that thing about less distance actually making it harder to hit when using weapons like the Ganz in mind and have tried to get farther away gradually to see if there is any distance where the hits become somewhat reliable and it just doesnt happen. I also have tried a variety of targets (ants, wolves, bears, securebots, zombies) and out of all the shots I take, hit maybe like 1 in 15, typically a grazing hit. I chose the ganz because it seems to be a good option for long range kills of things that are dangerous up close from the stats but that is not the case at all atm in practice.

Edit 2: did a wish for some steel crossbow bolts and they seem to perform much better in testing but I do not see these very often. Any chance they will become craftable at some point? The ganz still usually misses though (14 dex, 12 perception, 21 archery, 5 firearms now).

[KA101]

Probably the bolts. There’s the whole thing about having to make fletching and arrowheads separately now, so I’m guessing they applied that to wooden bolts too.

[Whitelight]

All I have is recipes for wooden bolts so if there are others out there I am missing forgive me but thats what I have thats renewable. Initially, I went with crossbows because bows were a bit too powerful and I like biotics in my unarmed build and eventually throw on Fusion Arm Blaster. My thinking was that I would use crossbows instead since regular bows are always considered 2 handed. The thing I have noticed recently is that I actually can’t use them with one arm after all. I know in a previous thread it was mentioned that despite the fusion arm blasters description you could still 1 hand weapons with less than strength x 4 weight so I thought that would include xbows since they don’t actually take 2 hands to operate normally. Funny thing is that although I cant equip them from my inventory I can still pick them from the ground and wield them that way… forgot to get around to actually reporting that bug.

I have started trying to find something lighter but with a good ammo supply at this point anyway but I still like crossbows a lot and would love to see a wider array of ammo options for them as well. I particularly like the repeating crossbow and I think it might be a lot more viable if I could make steel bolts cause even grazing hits with those add up quick.

I would gladly welcome any suggestions for how to manage Bots, Turrets, and Shockers with unarmed combat or a good lightweight alternative. I was really trying to avoid firearms but I don’t see any other good options anymore.

[KA101]

[quote=“Whitelight, post:17, topic:2280”]All I have is recipes for wooden bolts so if there are others out there I am missing forgive me but thats what I have thats renewable. Initially, I went with crossbows because bows were a bit too powerful and I like biotics in my unarmed build and eventually throw on Fusion Arm Blaster. My thinking was that I would use crossbows instead since regular bows are always considered 2 handed. The thing I have noticed recently is that I actually can’t use them with one arm after all. I know in a previous thread it was mentioned that despite the fusion arm blasters description you could still 1 hand weapons with less than strength x 4 weight so I thought that would include xbows since they don’t actually take 2 hands to operate normally. Funny thing is that although I cant equip them from my inventory I can still pick them from the ground and wield them that way… forgot to get around to actually reporting that bug.

I have started trying to find something lighter but with a good ammo supply at this point anyway but I still like crossbows a lot and would love to see a wider array of ammo options for them as well. I particularly like the repeating crossbow and I think it might be a lot more viable if I could make steel bolts cause even grazing hits with those add up quick.

I would gladly welcome any suggestions for how to manage Bots, Turrets, and Shockers with unarmed combat or a good lightweight alternative. I was really trying to avoid firearms but I don’t see any other good options anymore.[/quote]

Turrets got you down? not a gun user? That’s where a heap of Rocks and the Throwing skill come in. Initially, it may take 20-30 rocks to kill one turret, but as you get better it can get down to around 10 or less. The important thing is to approach when it’s dark (so, mil outposts, etc get hit at night), have 0 arm encumbrance (take off your arm guards) and to get as close as you can without being beeped at. Generally, that’s range 7 or 8. (If you get beeped at, back up NOW; if you’re underground, close the door or get a wall between you and the turret.)

Throwing through a fence is a bad idea, incidentally–the rocks are too big.

[Whitelight]

I guess that works fine outside as I could just collect a few rocks around a mil outpost for ammo… but what about when I’m in an underground facility and suddenly turrets?

[Raital]

All I have is recipes for wooden bolts so if there are others out there I am missing forgive me but thats what I have thats renewable.

In a post on the tips and tricks topic I mentioned a means of producing steel crossbow bolts from wooden crossbow bolts.

[quote=“Raital, post:1214, topic:42”]Here’s a quick and dirty trick; crafting steel crossbow bolts through 4-1 wood to metal conversion magic.
Reach skill 3 in Traps (the skill book will get you there), craft some wood crossbow bolts, and acquire the needed ingredients for the crossbow trap (easiest way is to disarm a crossbow trap). Create the crossbow trap, using the 4 wood crossbow bolts for the recipe. Disassemble the trap. Instead of 4 wood crossbow bolts, you will get a steel crossbow bolt. Repeat as necessary.[/quote]
While it’s cheesy and not realistic, it’s also incredibly silly that a character can craft a steel arrow to be fired by a bow but cannot craft a steel crossbow bolt, so I consider it acceptable.