[0.6 git] slings increase firearms?

[grisamentum]

Running around shooting things with pebbles out of my sling increases my firearms skill?

Seems a bit silly.

[esran]

slingshots also increase both bows and firearms. and for that matter bows inrease both bows and firearms.

[Soron]

The “firearms” skill is currently being used for any kind of tool-assisted projectile launching. There’s been sporadic debate about whether that’s sensible, IIRC.

[Dzlan]

Well, Firearms should increase so much slower, considering it gives other effects such as, attachments and anything else involving firearms.
Bows, Slings, Throwing(?) should not increase it. Nor should crossbows.
Also, regarding throwing and archery…
Firing at a wall, and the ground to build up your skills, too be honest, is really stupid. You should need to hit enemies for that.

[Williham]

[quote=“Dzlan, post:4, topic:1703”]Well, Firearms should increase so much slower, considering it gives other effects such as, attachments and anything else involving firearms.
Bows, Slings, Throwing(?) should not increase it. Nor should crossbows.
Also, regarding throwing and archery…
Firing at a wall, and the ground to build up your skills, too be honest, is really stupid. You should need to hit enemies for that.[/quote]

First of all, crossbows should absolutely increase firearms skill: They are essentially guns.

Second, firing at the wall and the ground is a perfectly reasonable way to level a skill. In real life it’s tantamount to training in what we would call a “firing range”. It’s no different than firing at an enemy, at least in principle: You aim, you fire. This is the exact same process as you would do for an enemy.

Throwing does not in fact level firearms, but the way firearms currently works, it wouldn’t be entirely wrong if it did.

However: There’s a problem with the firearms skill; and that is that it’s kind of confused: In the original Cataclysm, it kind of made sense, but when reloading was introduced and tied into the skill, things got a bit wonky.

All of this could probably be solved as follows:

1. The firearms skill should be renamed to “ranged”, or something to that effect, and represent accuracy training. All ranged attacks train it (throwing, pistols, rifles, submachine guns, grenade launchers, archery).

2. A new firearms skill is introduced, which doesn’t (directly) influence accuracy; representing skills related to gun working and maintenance; trained by cleaning, maintaining and building guns and crossbows, as well as reloading ammunition.

The firearms skill would not influence accuracy, but represent how fast the condition of your weapon deteriorates (when that is in), how high it can be brought, how fast it can be stripped and cleaned, and reloading success; as well as gating the installation of gunmods. (With different gun mods requiring different levels, perhaps even on a gun-to-gun basis.)

3. Some recipes that are currently mechanics should be moved to firearms, such as the crossbow, pipe guns, etc.

4. Crossbows should probably be moved out of the archery skill, and into pistols, as they are far more closely related to pistols in operation than they are to bows, although their ballistics are closer to bows than to pistols.

[Bladerock]

The firearms maintenance, design and cartridge reloading need to be separated from the current firearms skill. However, i would say Crossbows should just stay archery. They are an archaic weapon, lacking a lot of the mechanical complexities of a firearm (No real moving parts besides the trigger mechanism.)

On a semi related note; Really not looking forward to “weapon deterioration” since that usually means having to fix guns made of putty that break every hundred shots or so and swords breaking in half from hitting meat and bone.

[woflsipder]

3) Some recipes that are currently mechanics should be moved to firearms, such as the crossbow, pipe guns, etc.

They are using Mechanics + a secondary skill of Firearms. I think it only should be changed around , so its Firearms with Mechanics as secondary.

[Williham]

The firearms maintenance, design and cartridge reloading need to be separated from the current firearms skill. However, i would say Crossbows should just stay archery. They are an archaic weapon, lacking a lot of the mechanical complexities of a firearm (No real moving parts besides the trigger mechanism.)

I’m going to have to disagree with you on crossbows, on two counts:

1. While the very earliest crossbows were essentially a bow nailed to a stick, that’s not really the case with modern crossbows. Furthermore, the various weapon-specific skills relate to ballistics and operation, and in both these respects crossbows are very different from bows. The fact that they both have “bow” in their name is more of an historical artefact than anything related to their design.

2. Firearms (bar semi-automatic weapons) aren’t really that complex. A revolver, for instance, also has no other moving parts than the trigger group, and even a bolt action rifle is pretty simple in design, all things told.

[quote=“Williham, post:5, topic:1703”]3) Some recipes that are currently mechanics should be moved to firearms, such as the crossbow, pipe guns, etc.

They are using Mechanics + a secondary skill of Firearms. I think it only should be changed around , so its Firearms with Mechanics as secondary.[/quote]

As appropriate, yes.

[Bladerock]

1) While the very earliest crossbows were essentially a bow nailed to a stick, that’s not really the case with modern crossbows. Furthermore, the various weapon-specific skills relate to ballistics and operation, and in both these respects crossbows are very different from bows. The fact that they both have “bow” in their name is more of an historical artefact than anything related to their design.

First off, a crossbow that doesn’t derive it’s power from a bow is a speargun or slingshot. So, although it may not be a literal bow tied to a plank, the bow component is very much a key part of a proper crossbow. Modern or not. If you go by ballistics, you might as well toss slingshots into the handguns category because slingshot bullets have flight patterns similar to gun bullets.

Yeah, a modern crossbow is fired from the same position as a rifle and someone familiar with one will most likely take to a crossbow fairly quickly. The opposite is not true, however. Rifles may be simple, but someone unfamiliar with their use will not be able to work with it just because they have fired a crossbow. In the end, this is like arguing that shotguns should be under rifles in the game because they have the same overall shape as a rifle, are fired from the same position, and there’s even rifled shotguns for firing slugs!

If you place them both in the same category, you will have to make crossbows work like BB guns in the game (Both are similar to a rifle, but not a rifle). That is to say, they can only increase your skill to a certain level and going further in rifles requires and actual rifle.

You know what? Give crossbows their own skill and add some crossbow variety, instead. Crossbows in real life can fire slingshot ammunition, arrows and bolts, and there’s even repeating and double varieties. That’s five models right there.

[Alistaire]

Firearms are weapons that use a chemical charge to launch projectiles. Archery weapons use a tensioned string and bent solid to launch a projectile.
Conclusion: They are not the same.

Also;

Crossbows are not firearms.
Slingshots do not fire bullets.
Crossbows fall under Archery, and do NOT require a seperate skill, because hey they are archery weapons.
It’s not a question of how complex crossbows are; they do NOT use chemical charges to launch projectiles. So they are not firearms.

[Williham]

Giving crossbows their own skill is probably the best option, all told.

It doesn’t belong in the archery skill, and while it might work in the rifle (or pistol) skill, it is, as you point out, not really appropriate either.

And yes, more models of crossbows would be pretty snazzy.

[Williham]

[quote=“Alistaire, post:10, topic:1703”]Firearms are weapons that use a chemical charge to launch projectiles. Archery weapons use a tensioned string and bent solid to launch a projectile.
Conclusion: They are not the same.

Also;

Crossbows are not firearms.
Slingshots do not fire bullets.
Crossbows fall under Archery, and do NOT require a seperate skill, because hey they are archery weapons.
It’s not a question of how complex crossbows are; they do NOT use chemical charges to launch projectiles. So they are not firearms.[/quote]

Well, that’s a pretty simplistic view of things.

Let’s say I built a crossbow that, rather than launching a bolt, used the tensioned string to ignite a primer, launching a bullet. Would that be a bow or a firearm?

Sure, that’s a silly example, but you’re being silly from the get-go, so I’m running with it.

The fact of the matter is that the introduction of a variety of ranged weapons has necessitated a restructuring of the skills related to ranged weapons.

Separating out crossbow as a separate skill and adding more models is a good solution; as is reworking the current firearms skill as a more generic “ranged” superskill, similar to “melee”. This has the neat side effect that it also bring C:DDA more in line with the original Cataclysm, where that is what the firearms skill in effect represented (as there was no bullet crafting).

Of note, however, is that crossbow ballistics are quite dissimilar to bow ballistics, and skill with a bow would not really transfer to using a crossbow; except insofar as any training with a ranged weapon transfers.

Also, a slingshot does technically fire bullets; wether or not modern firearms fire bullets is far more questionable.

[Bladerock]

Let’s say I built a crossbow that, rather than launching a bolt, used the tensioned string to ignite a primer, launching a bullet. Would that be a bow or a firearm?

That belongs under the super heated rebar shooting crossbow category. That is to say, it can only exist in your imagination (You don’t need anywhere near the strength of a crossbow to fire the primer) If you want an actual answer, it’s a firearm. The bow mechanism is only doing the function of a striker, everything else functions exactly like a firearm.

Of note, however, is that crossbow ballistics are quite dissimilar to bow ballistics, and skill with a bow would not really transfer to using a crossbow; except insofar as any training with a ranged weapon transfers.

Not necessarily. Most commercial crossbows fire the same arrows commercial bows do (The crossbow in the game is all over the place). And arguing ballistics as the defining factor of what skill to use is silly, since most firearms have similar ballistics all around, you’d be arguing that all of them belong under the same skill.

Also, a slingshot does technically fire bullets; wether or not modern firearms fire bullets is far more questionable.

They both fire bullets. Firearms use a chemical charge to fire theirs, and slingshots use the tensile strength of their cord (usually rubber). This is not a grey area at all.

[Alistaire]

[quote=“Williham, post:12, topic:1703”]Well, that’s a pretty simplistic view of things.

Let’s say I built a crossbow that, rather than launching a bolt, used the tensioned string to ignite a primer, launching a bullet. Would that be a bow or a firearm?

Sure, that’s a silly example, but you’re being silly from the get-go, so I’m running with it.

The fact of the matter is that the introduction of a variety of ranged weapons has necessitated a restructuring of the skills related to ranged weapons.

Separating out crossbow as a separate skill and adding more models is a good solution; as is reworking the current firearms skill as a more generic “ranged” superskill, similar to “melee”. This has the neat side effect that it also bring C:DDA more in line with the original Cataclysm, where that is what the firearms skill in effect represented (as there was no bullet crafting).

Of note, however, is that crossbow ballistics are quite dissimilar to bow ballistics, and skill with a bow would not really transfer to using a crossbow; except insofar as any training with a ranged weapon transfers.

Also, a slingshot does technically fire bullets; wether or not modern firearms fire bullets is far more questionable.[/quote]

Simplicity is the hidden beauty of philosophy. We actually call it logic. And if you can prove something with logic, it’s obviously very logical.

If you want to separate weapon skills into categories like “Firing from hip position”, you’re gonna have a bad time.
The best way would be to just keep crossbows in archery, because both bows and crossbows fire projectiles under 10,000 J/kg (kinetic energy). A 9mm fires bullets with kinetic energy of over 50,000 J/kg.

[Williham]

[quote=“Alistaire, post:14, topic:1703”][quote=“Williham, post:12, topic:1703”]Well, that’s a pretty simplistic view of things.

Let’s say I built a crossbow that, rather than launching a bolt, used the tensioned string to ignite a primer, launching a bullet. Would that be a bow or a firearm?

Sure, that’s a silly example, but you’re being silly from the get-go, so I’m running with it.

The fact of the matter is that the introduction of a variety of ranged weapons has necessitated a restructuring of the skills related to ranged weapons.

Separating out crossbow as a separate skill and adding more models is a good solution; as is reworking the current firearms skill as a more generic “ranged” superskill, similar to “melee”. This has the neat side effect that it also bring C:DDA more in line with the original Cataclysm, where that is what the firearms skill in effect represented (as there was no bullet crafting).

Of note, however, is that crossbow ballistics are quite dissimilar to bow ballistics, and skill with a bow would not really transfer to using a crossbow; except insofar as any training with a ranged weapon transfers.

Also, a slingshot does technically fire bullets; wether or not modern firearms fire bullets is far more questionable.[/quote]

Simplicity is the hidden beauty of philosophy. We actually call it logic. And if you can prove something with logic, it’s obviously very logical.

If you want to separate weapon skills into categories like “Firing from hip position”, you’re gonna have a bad time.
The best way would be to just keep crossbows in archery, because both bows and crossbows fire projectiles under 10,000 J/kg (kinetic energy). A 9mm fires bullets with kinetic energy of over 50,000 J/kg.[/quote]

Yes, sure, logic.

The problem is, you’re starting from a flawed premise, meaning that any conclusion you reach is equally flawed.

Your premise is that what defines a bow is its string, or its launch energy, neither of which is close to being the case.

What is critical to proper use, and makes a crossbow more similar to a firearm than a bow, is the method of aim.

Crossbows and firearms operate with a fixed trigger group position, allowing for actual accuracy.

In an idealized case, every bolt fired from a fixed crossbow is fired with the same velocity, in the same direction; the same is true of a handgun or rifle.

With a bow, however, the firing mechanism is external, and conditions are less easily reproducible.

This is what actually differentiates a bow, sling or slingshot from a crossbow, pistol or rifle.

Every other property of the weapon is completely and utterly incidental.

[Alistaire]

[quote=“Williham, post:15, topic:1703”]The problem is, you’re starting from a flawed premise, meaning that any conclusion you reach is equally flawed.

Your premise is that what defines a bow is its string, or its launch energy, neither of which is close to being the case.

What is critical to proper use, and makes a crossbow more similar to a firearm than a bow, is the method of aim.

Crossbows and firearms operate with a fixed trigger group position, allowing for actual accuracy.

In an idealized case, every bolt fired from a fixed crossbow is fired with the same velocity, in the same direction; the same is true of a handgun or rifle.

With a bow, however, the firing mechanism is external, and conditions are less easily reproducible.

This is what actually differentiates a bow, sling or slingshot from a crossbow, pistol or rifle.

Every other property of the weapon is completely and utterly incidental.[/quote]

What’s the flawed premise you’re talking about. Do Firearms NOT use chemical charges to fire projectiles? Do Archery weapons NOT use a string and a solid to fire projectiles? No. They do.

That’s not the premise I used. I never said what defines a bow is its string, nor did I say its launch energy does.
I said archery weapons use a string and a solid to fire projectiles, and firearms do not - which is unarguably true. I concluded that they are not the same.

Also, what does the method of aim even say. How would you describe the method of aim of a crossbow compared to that of a handgun. There’s no real sense talking about the “method of aim”, it’s really not important, because if we’d talk about that, we’d need to separate the M249 from rifles aswell.
What you’re saying is that crossbows and guns will always fire the same if everything is the same. That’s the case with every single thing ever. I can’t see you concluding that they’re the same in that way.

I’d propose a namechange to “Bows” -> “Archery weapons”, to be 100% correct. But quite frankly, none cares if crossbows are to be called bows or not.

Also funny, Bows is a part of Firearms in the actual game.

[Williham]

[quote=“Alistaire, post:16, topic:1703”][quote=“Williham, post:15, topic:1703”]The problem is, you’re starting from a flawed premise, meaning that any conclusion you reach is equally flawed.

Your premise is that what defines a bow is its string, or its launch energy, neither of which is close to being the case.

What is critical to proper use, and makes a crossbow more similar to a firearm than a bow, is the method of aim.

Crossbows and firearms operate with a fixed trigger group position, allowing for actual accuracy.

In an idealized case, every bolt fired from a fixed crossbow is fired with the same velocity, in the same direction; the same is true of a handgun or rifle.

With a bow, however, the firing mechanism is external, and conditions are less easily reproducible.

This is what actually differentiates a bow, sling or slingshot from a crossbow, pistol or rifle.

Every other property of the weapon is completely and utterly incidental.[/quote]

What’s the flawed premise you’re talking about. Do Firearms NOT use chemical charges to fire projectiles? Do Archery weapons NOT use a string and a solid to fire projectiles? No. They do.

That’s not the premise I used. I never said what defines a bow is its string, nor did I say its launch energy does.
I said archery weapons use a string and a solid to fire projectiles, and firearms do not - which is unarguably true. I concluded that they are not the same.

Also, what does the method of aim even say. How would you describe the method of aim of a crossbow compared to that of a handgun. There’s no real sense talking about the “method of aim”, it’s really not important, because if we’d talk about that, we’d need to separate the M249 from rifles aswell.
What you’re saying is that crossbows and guns will always fire the same if everything is the same. That’s the case with every single thing ever. I can’t see you concluding that they’re the same in that way.

I’d propose a namechange to “Bows” -> “Archery weapons”, to be 100% correct. But quite frankly, none cares if crossbows are to be called bows or not.

Also funny, Bows is a part of Firearms in the actual game.[/quote]

First of all, the M249 should be separate from rifles, so no argument there.

Secondly, crossbows are named for bows as an historical artefact, in much the same way the the projectile held in a 9mm cartridge is named a bullet as an historical artefact.

Crossbows are not, nor have they ever been, bows; and modern firearms fire slugs, not bullets.

Had some ancient inventor seen it fit to call his crossbow a bolt launcher, you’d probably have demanded we keep it in the same skill as grenade launchers, because they’re both launchers, right?

Don’t get hung up on names, but try to understand the mechanics of the weapon.

A crossbow, like a firearm, takes a predefined amount of force, given at the time of loading, and produces from that an easily reproducible, low-investment firing profile.

On the other hand, a “true” bow takes no predefined amount of force, but whatever force you bring to bear upon it, within its limits, to adjust the trajectory as needs arise.

This is, in truth, what makes bows and bolt launchers differ: The fact that they have a completely different energy expenditure graph.

Archery, as it stands, is the skill related to leveraging the variable-graph nature of a bow to deliver an as accurate shot as possible.

This is an aspect that is completely missing from the operation of a crossbow, and is what really makes them different.

The fact that a taut string and a solid frame is used to deliver energy to the projectile is completely and utterly incidental.

[grisamentum]

[quote=“Williham, post:17, topic:1703”]in much the same way the the projectile held in a 9mm cartridge is named a bullet as an historical artefact.

Crossbows are not, nor have they ever been, bows; and modern firearms fire slugs, not bullets.[/quote]

In modern English the term “bullet” is far more widely used than slug, though some people say “bullet” in reference to the entire cartridge out of ignorance. “Slug” is only rarely used to refer to the projectile load (the bullet) in a cartridge; it’s far more common that “slug” refers to solid shotgun projectiles (ie, not shot.)

In other words, modern firearms do, in fact, fire bullets.

Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug_(projectile) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet

[grisamentum]

[quote=“Williham, post:5, topic:1703”][quote=“Dzlan, post:4, topic:1703”]Well, Firearms should increase so much slower, considering it gives other effects such as, attachments and anything else involving firearms.
Bows, Slings, Throwing(?) should not increase it. Nor should crossbows.
Also, regarding throwing and archery…
Firing at a wall, and the ground to build up your skills, too be honest, is really stupid. You should need to hit enemies for that.[/quote]

First of all, crossbows should absolutely increase firearms skill: They are essentially guns.

Second, firing at the wall and the ground is a perfectly reasonable way to level a skill. In real life it’s tantamount to training in what we would call a “firing range”. It’s no different than firing at an enemy, at least in principle: You aim, you fire. This is the exact same process as you would do for an enemy.

Throwing does not in fact level firearms, but the way firearms currently works, it wouldn’t be entirely wrong if it did.

However: There’s a problem with the firearms skill; and that is that it’s kind of confused: In the original Cataclysm, it kind of made sense, but when reloading was introduced and tied into the skill, things got a bit wonky.

All of this could probably be solved as follows:

1. The firearms skill should be renamed to “ranged”, or something to that effect, and represent accuracy training. All ranged attacks train it (throwing, pistols, rifles, submachine guns, grenade launchers, archery).

2. A new firearms skill is introduced, which doesn’t (directly) influence accuracy; representing skills related to gun working and maintenance; trained by cleaning, maintaining and building guns and crossbows, as well as reloading ammunition.

The firearms skill would not influence accuracy, but represent how fast the condition of your weapon deteriorates (when that is in), how high it can be brought, how fast it can be stripped and cleaned, and reloading success; as well as gating the installation of gunmods. (With different gun mods requiring different levels, perhaps even on a gun-to-gun basis.)

3. Some recipes that are currently mechanics should be moved to firearms, such as the crossbow, pipe guns, etc.

4. Crossbows should probably be moved out of the archery skill, and into pistols, as they are far more closely related to pistols in operation than they are to bows, although their ballistics are closer to bows than to pistols.[/quote]

A single “ranged” skill feels weird, since the principle of “slings” are somewhat different than guns, bows, crossbows, and slingshots. It is arguably like throwing, but the mechanics are not quite the same.

Further, we already have a Perception stat which has little impact beyond giving ranged bonuses (and allowing for better trap detection and hearing). It seems weird to have a trainable skill that replaces the need for a stat as related to combat.

[GlyphGryph]

The problem with most of the arguments so far (aside from Williham’s) is that they are… irrelevant, at best, even if true.

We are talking about a skill. So arguing the physical difference between guns, crossbows, bows and slings is… absurd, really. Pointless. The mechanism doesn’t matter. Skill is all about how good a player is at doing whatever it is they are doing.

So focus on the actual skill-based differences between these items:
Crossbows are functionally quite similar to guns in terms of basic mechanical use. Load. Point. Pull trigger. One could argue the loading is different, but the loading is different for quite a few different guns as well, so that logic would indicate we’d need separate skills for magazines and single-loaders. There’s also a difference in that most guns can take multiple shots, and the skill difference could be based on the ability to do so effectively, but again, there are guns that cannot, so this doesn’t really differentiate the crossbow.
However, there is a difference in being able to /hit/ targets, based primarily on the speed of the projectile - a crossbow flies in less of a straight line, and takes longer to reach the target. They require more leading, and have less range. Of course, this is true of many guns as well - a bb-gun is quite different from your average rifle used as a sniper in all the same ways, and by much the same degree.

But what of bows? Bows actually have a very different basic mechanical use pattern. The draw and degree is important. Again, they are slower than guns, and require a different approach to aiming. You can do a few interesting things with a bow you can’t with a crossbow or gun - you can adjust your power level to abuse the advantage of the arc. Much like throwing weapons, you can accurately bypass obstacles in this way if you are a skilled bowman. They are practically identical to slingshots use-wise though, in every way but the power and resulting damage.

And slings? Slings are similar to bows in the concerns for aiming, but are very different mechanically in terms of loading and firing.

I’ll make no conclusions from this, just trying to bring the conversation to focus on differences that are actually important to a skill, and whether or not something uses primer isn’t one of them, unless we are talking about the ability to craft bullets (which should probably not be firearms based at all).

Maybe we need to introduce a new science skill, physics, and we can move a bunch of this stuff into there…