Archery redesign?

Game Talk The Drawing Board
1

Pretty new here, and after a lot of successful deaths i decided to finally set up a mini-me template. Had to bump traits to 13 points to get them in, and i assumed 8 strenght was the average human strenght. Edited a json to add in a custom profession with hand-picked items but i got extremely stumped at one thing, which led me down into the jsons again.

Archery is set-up horribly. I mean, i see so much depth and detail in other parts of the game but archery has almost no correlation with real life and even the actual in game utility is weird. Everything is just out whack and sometimes outright mindbending. If the game is as moddable as i can see it is (though the STR10/12_DRAW flags have me stumped as to their location unless it’s an API call), i’ll prolly give it a shot.

Taking it from the top:

  • Before anything else, split crossbows from bows. Keep the crossbows as a “rifle” or if nothing else, split it into its own skill. Bows stay under archery.
  • Split the fletching/bolt-arrow making from archery and merge it into Fabrication.
  • Range. Really. Read till the end, heavy focus on ammo.
  • Bows vs crossbows. From a game design perspective, bows should be the ‘on the go’ high skill high reward item. Bows should keep their initial STR requirement but also have “STR_DAMAGE” scale as the crossbows have a “STR_RELOAD” scaling. Crossbows should be able to be used by any strenght level, but have the “STR_RELOAD” scale massively here.
  • Different draw weights per bow. See below.

Basically the crossbows will become easier to use through tiny bit smaller dispersion and synergy with another large branch but at a large cost to weight and volume and a dedication to strenght if you want to close in on bow reload/shooting speed. Bows are a lot harder to get into, having a minimum strenght requirement, but will shoot faster, and the potential for a large amount of damage is high if you dedicate into strenght more than the minimum requirement. (for the archers out there, we’ll asume over-drawing does not harm the bow)

  • Bow types. Four types of bows are enough. Self bows, Recurve bows, Compound bows and Shortbows. Let’s go in for a quick tour:

Short bows - High strenght req, scales damage on strenght. Most compact, doesn’t come in light draw weights. Endgame.
Recurve bows - Medium strenght req, scales damage on strenght. Middle of the road choice.
Compound bows - Medium strenght req, bit less than Recurves. Doesn’t scale damage on strenght. Does fixed unscaling damage, but requires less strenght than the recurves.
Self bows - Low strenght req, doesn’t scale damage on strenght. DIY plastic/wood bows. Starting equipment.

To note, i’m considering medium-strenght to being 6. Though how someone who’s sub-average can carry a 37 kg load is beyond me. That’s how much trained military infantry-men carry in PT. That’s another rant for another time.

The twist comes now. Bows come in draw weights which dictate damage and range. This bugged me to no end when i realised the options ingame. Basically you could find/make “Self bow 10lbs” or “Self bow 20lbs”, each outputting more damage and getting more range the ‘heavier’ the bow is to pull. For comparison, an untrained male adult will find 20 pounds easy to pull, 40 pounds will be a bit of a muscle flex but not hard, 60 is a real push but can be done with training and a developed musculature and 80 is dedicated for strong and/or trained people. For fun we can have one or two ‘unique’ 100 pound bows but they’re unreasonable. The shittiest selfbow should be shootable even at 3 or 4 strenght while the 80lb shortbow will need around 12 strenght. Crossbows can follow the same design for draw weights.

If anyone says ‘it will be to complicated!’, i remind you the amount of guns we already have in the game and for someone that barely knows his USP 45 from his Sig 9mm, it might just as well be one and the same.

You might be thinking this is OP and from what i’ve read around here, there have been issues with archery being OP before. One of the things about archery is that in order for anyone to be able to hit a proper target at even 15-20 meters, they need GOOD arrows. You can’t just cut a twig up or hammer some scrap metal and make an arrow or a bolt.

We have guns for reliable/predictable damage. Crossbows and bows should be the ones that require a heap of investment in both material/manufacturing and skill level to pull off. A bit of a high-risk, high-reward kind of mechanic combined with a large enough reload time to rival a pistol reload. Sure you can pretty much fire unfletched lenghts of tube, and for crossbows, that’s a better deal initially that in bows, but when you have a properly fletched arrow shaft, only then can you expect to do those huge-damage silent critical headshots from 40 meters.

The actual fletching seems mostly fine, but i’d put a MUCH larger difference in stats, and i’d actually like to have a few dedicated tools needed for superior products: a sandgrinder and some fletching posts, plus more need for superglue in recipies.

Anyhow, this was my little rant/suggestion box. It’s way late here but i might make an excel with some bowstats tomorrow.

2

This seems like a combination of needlessly splitting things up (bows/crossbows, changing fletching) and needless loss of detail (removing reflex, reflexrecurve, and longbows for no reason). Also a few things don’t seem to make sense, like a basic, no extras shortbow being better than more hightech options. The strength scaling also doesn’t make all that much sense, a bow is always going to have a set draw on it, no matter how strong you are you’re only going to be able to take it to full draw. Nothing is going to let you draw it past that no matter your muscles, you’d just snap the wood/plastic/string.

3

For one, I completely agree on crossbows. They should use straight-up Marksmanship, or failing that, Launchers, because they are a simple point-and-shoot weapon with a slower projectile. Archery is a completely different set of skills.

Also, all bows scale damage on strength. They just have a cap of how much strength they can take before they’re pushed as far as they will go. What bows should have, in my opinion, is a “maximum draw” parameter, beyond which they can not be drawn. At that draw, they deal maximum damage and have maximum range. What the bows also have is a “draw strength” parameter, which tells you how much strength is needed to fully draw the bow. Having more strength than that should have no effect, and having less strength than that will proportionately decrease the bow’s range and damage. I believe that’s all there is to it. Any additional stats from arrows will be just that - additional.

4

Interesting ideas.
Although Archery and Crossbows are very different real world skills skills, keeping them under ‘archery’ seems like an ok compromise. It’s probably best to think of archery as ‘non-gun-powder weaponry’ and all the things that go along with that (accounting for range/wind, maintenance of wood and plastic parts and so on).

Putting draw weights in would confuse people/require a lot of in-game explaining, although Sean’s idea about having a maximum draw weight (probably called maximum strength modifier or something in game) would be a good way of doing this. We shouldn’t use the complicated/diffuse nature of guns to justify bringing this in to other mechanics.

I completely agree with you on fletching though, especially just being able to use scrap and twigs (which are incredibly abundant) to make an unlimited amount of arrows. I feel that all arrows other than the weakest ones (small game arrows) should require fletching and a head, and metal ones requiring something different from just ordinary scrap.

5

I’m all for expanding archery - it’s the main skill of all of my characters so far…

But I’m not sure these are such great ideas. Archery is used for crossbows, bows and slingshots. All ranged non-gunpowder weapons, which is good for simplicity’s sake. The skills necessary to fire these weapons aren’t at all that different in real life.

I do agree arrows should be more expensive. Crafting one arrow at a time instead of 10 would probably solve that and be easy enough to implement.
But the main flaw of archery I think is just how reliable and effective it is. I’ve played with it with all of my characters, because there’s just no reason not to. It’s easy, cheap, effective and you can craft everything yourself. Why would you bother with expensive and loud guns?

What I would suggest is removing shooting-reloading-in-one-turn from bows. It doesn’t really make much sense and my ability to fire an arrow for every step my opponent makes is simply overpowered. Add reloading the arrow as a separate turn so the rate of fire get’s cut in half or by 1/3. Plus I’d prefer to walk around with an arrow ready like I would in real life to pull off a quick-shot.

6

I agree on being able to “load” a bow - it’s not literally loading it, but just keeping the arrow notched so that you don’t have to reach into the quiver before you have to fire.

This could also technically allow for multishot on extreme skill levels.

And no, crossbows are very, very different from bows. Firing a crossbow is more like firing a grenade launcher than it is like firing a bow - while the ballistic drop is reasonably similar between the bow and the crossbow, the act of aiming and firing makes the crossbow, in skill terms, much closer to a launcher than to a bow.

7

I agree that skill used in arhery and in crossbows are quite diferent, but I suggest not to split them, to avoid overabundance of skills. To say, slings use very different skill too, but I’m sure that “slings” skill is not necessary. Other ideas as draw strenght of bows and modification of arrow crafting are welcome indeed.

8

[quote=“Sanarr, post:7, topic:5611”]I agree that skill used in arhery and in crossbows are quite diferent, but I suggest not to split them, to avoid overabundance of skills. To say, slings use very different skill too, but I’m sure that “slings” skill is not necessary. Other ideas as draw strenght of bows and modification of arrow crafting are welcome indeed.[/quote]I don’t propose to add a separate skill for crossbows. I propose moving them to either Launchers, or straight-up Marksmanship. And Slings are much closer to bows - both use slow, significantly arcing projectiles, and both use the wielder’s strength and sense of timing to fine-tune the trajectory of the stone/arrow - so while technically a very different weapon, mechanically and in terms of the skill involved, I believe slings can use Archery no problem.

9

I’m afraid I disagree - crossbows require strength to load (quite a bit for old style ones), are affected by winds and have firing arcs, as well as similar maintenance, quivering and other issues as mentioned before. They’re even mentioned in the wikipedia entry on archery!
Similarly, Assault rifles require very different skills from hunting/sniper rifles, yet they’re still in the same category - whether you agree with that or not, it still makes sense to group things together for the ease of new players and what is ‘common’ practice in games.

I’d second reloading and shooting being two different actions, however I’d discourage making individual arrows, as I think that’d just cause a lot more tedium. I’d instead suggest that arrows require a lot better materials to make (other than really rubbish ones) and have a much greater chance of mulching.

10

Leaving the skill discussion aside, more benefits to good arrows as opposed to twigs and loading a bow are good ideas.

11

[quote=“Binky, post:9, topic:5611”]I’m afraid I disagree - crossbows require strength to load (quite a bit for old style ones), are affected by winds and have firing arcs, as well as similar maintenance, quivering and other issues as mentioned before. They’re even mentioned in the wikipedia entry on archery![/quote]They may well have the same operating principles and means of gaining power, but ultimately they’re very far from being the same thing. I think the defining issue here is that where a bow has a variable draw strength - it will shoot off an arrow regardless of how far you pull the string, it’ll just do it weaker or stronger - the crossbow has a fixed draw strength, due to its mechanical release. Ratchet crossbows don’t even have the strength requirement - they just take time to load, a little like the muzzleloader rifles. A crossbow is very much a mechanical weapon, and in function it behaves like a gun. In function it behaves like a darned railgun even, except instead of taking in, storing, and releasing electrical energy to launch a projectile, it takes in, stores, and releases mechanical energy - and up to a point, at far greater efficiency. Finally, there’s this passage in the Wiki’s entry for the crossbow:

Today, the crossbow often has a complicated legal status due to the possibility of lethal use and its similarities to both firearms and archery weapons. While some jurisdictions regard crossbows the same as firearms, many others do not require any sort of license to own a crossbow — even for people, such as felons, who may not legally possess a firearm.

When it’s starting to be legally considered a firearm, it might as well be considered a firearm.

12

[quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:11, topic:5611”]

Today, the crossbow often has a complicated legal status due to the possibility of lethal use and its similarities to both firearms and archery weapons. While some jurisdictions regard crossbows the same as firearms, many others do not require any sort of license to own a crossbow — even for people, such as felons, who may not legally possess a firearm.

When it’s starting to be legally considered a firearm, it might as well be considered a firearm.[/quote]

In that same article :

Crossbows are used for shooting sports and bowhunting in modern archery...

This is splitting hairs though - the tension on a bow string takes in, stores and releases energy to launch a projectile! In the end, a crossbow, in it’s simplest form, is just a side mounted bow with a ratchet and winch to load the arrow instead of doing it by hand. Yeah, it’s a different mechanic, but it’s close enough for a game, and would be incredibly confusing for new players when a lot of games (and real life examples) class it is a form of archery.
We’re basically saying that archery is extended to be experience in both. Just like with the cooking skill - baking cakes don’t in real life help you cook better steaks - we have to make the cross over in experience out of a need for more common sense/ease of entry for players. So when you train the archery skill up, you’re training up all the aspects of working with wooden/plastic weapons with a tense string that can unleash non explosive ammo.

13

[quote=“Binky, post:12, topic:5611”]In that same article :

Crossbows are used for shooting sports and bowhunting in modern archery...

This is splitting hairs though - the tension on a bow string takes in, stores and releases energy to launch a projectile! In the end, a crossbow, in it’s simplest form, is just a side mounted bow with a ratchet and winch to load the arrow instead of doing it by hand. Yeah, it’s a different mechanic, but it’s close enough for a game, and would be incredibly confusing for new players when a lot of games (and real life examples) class it is a form of archery.
We’re basically saying that archery is extended to be experience in both. Just like with the cooking skill - baking cakes don’t in real life help you cook better steaks - we have to make the cross over in experience out of a need for more common sense/ease of entry for players. So when you train the archery skill up, you’re training up all the aspects of working with wooden/plastic weapons with a tense string that can unleash non explosive ammo.[/quote]But wouldn’t a DIY coilgun be effectively the same thing, then? Look, I understand that bows and crossbows technically operate on the same principles, but “skill” in using a weapon comes from being better able to aim it and fire it, and only a quarter of that carries over from bows to crossbows - because aiming a bow is in part a function of draw strength, and a crossbow’s draw strength is constant. An automatically loading, electric ratchet crossbow will be, to an operator, indistinguishable from a pneumatic dart gun, which is still a gun. Also, it’s entirely possible to have a “crossbow” that will have practically nothing in common with a bow:

Also, explosive arrows. :stuck_out_tongue:

14

I agree that technically a crossbow could be made so it didn’t resemble the same mechanism, but so could a bow. However, in terms of a basic crossbow and basic bow (as in what you could build with a few tools), they’re very similar.

Really this is all about ease of understanding for most players. Most would assume that Bows and crossBows would go under archery and they’re close enough for it to be a blanket skill.
Possibly an electric one could be put under guns as it does all of the main archery bits itself (although I’d say that’d be confusing), but I’d say that archery should cover any sort of non-electric or gun powder based ranged weapon. Anything else is needlessly complicated.

15

Archery/bows is definitely an idea system that could use a rework, and you’ve got some really great ideas here. I don’t see anything that I’d really disagree with.

As for some current ways that things work:

  1. STR_DRAW flags currently reduce the range if you don’t have enough strength, AFAIK that’s all they do (short of preventing you shooting it if you have STR that is way below where you need, such that your range becomes 0).
  2. “Average” strength of moderately fit person is intended to be 8 STR. Weight limits are intended to be the overall “maximum” that you might carry without collapsing (which is why it’s so high). Eventually once we get an exhaustion system we will almost certainly start to see exhaustion penalties kicking in a fair bit below that limit.
16

Hey, glad to hear this sparked such a heated debate. Before going into the new stat-phreaking let me phone in on some of the discussion:

-While i personally really think crossbows should be somewhere else but archery, i can understand the reasoning behind holding it there, even if it makes me twitch a bit.
-The STR-DRAW as it is is a top-limited requirement and makes it harder to understand. It’s better to make it bottom-up, so the player knows when he picks it up what i can do when he has the stats, and any extra damage or range he figures out later will be a bonus instead of realizing he’s not hitting the stats due to lack of STR.
-Also, in crossbow’s case, you have a foot assisted, double-handed, full body excersise to load a bolt, and that’s even if you don’t have a ratched to load. They don’t need a minimum strenght requirement and having a reload bonus by strenght is the proper way to solve that. Either way, flavor crossbows like ratchet ones can supplement the basic set of crossbows like i’ve done with bows. Will work on the crossbow stats tommorow to fit in with these.

Now, moving on to the set of balances i thought up. Basic bows are groundwork designs, flavor work upon that adding variety and flexibility. The main changes come in terms of reload, range and damage. You’ll see bows now fire/‘reload’ about three times slower for about double the damage, but getting back a proper range a bit further than pistols but much less than rifles, but with a lot more dispersion. I worked with all the weapons in the game and balanced them out as well as i could. (Though wtf saiga 4-shot burst of 50 damage?) Also i tweaked the descriptions and the names to be a lot easier to understood without actually requiring archery knowledge. Bigger numbers=better mostly but for the curious Joe, he’ll notice small differences here and there.

The bottom line is that bows are hard to properly use, but rewarding when used properly with proper equipment, but they take more of an ambush/spike role instead of something you’d use to mow down a horde. A more tactical weapon that works with the system of regrabbing spent arrows.

Last note, i considered arrows as designed to be crafted individually, not ‘in bulk’, and while i won’t touch the crafting recipies now, i’m sure they can be applied as they are mostly.

Open image in new window to see it all. And last notice, these are a groundwork, not ment to be final or fully correct. I expect heavy criticisim.

yxiHsg4.jpg1634×795

PS: The selfbow is ment to be made and fired right off the bat with no knowledge and the inefficiency is ment as a reflection of that while still allowing the user to train archery until he gets in ‘real’ bows.

17

I like the chart.

18

How do the compound bows have the same strength requirement as the recurves? Or wait, was that composite bows?

19

Well, in case you could not already tell, my friend Cosmo does fire a bow for real.

Now, it’s all fine and dandy everyone, it’s good to see numbers crunched, but remember not to fall into the temptation of making bows uber-weapons again.
Game should still be challenging/deadly.

Right now, my STR9/DEX11/PER9 can drop a bear in 9-12 fletched field points, with a shortbow at only 3 Archery. Usually this happens before the bear gets even close. Somehow despite my Animal Discord perk, the bear (and wolves) don’t move directly at me when attacked but rather waste time moving somewhat random.

tl;dr. Current bow+arrows+skill were a 30 minute real time job. Stats are not exceptional either, and I can drop a bear without problems.
Buff it too much and a combat oriented character (or a 200 day old one) will drop God himself in one arrow.

But yeah, it would be awesome to see bows with a draw strength value attached, (I know a bit about archery, I fire a 50lbs Poelang myself), and yeah, the current system does need reworking.

20

“Crossbows and bows should be the ones that require a heap of investment in both material/manufacturing and skill level to pull off.” - I don’t see why a bow should be harder to make then a gun. A heap of investment in materials and manufacturing?You’ve got to be kidding me. Every culture in the world has figured out how to make bows. Not every culture has figured out how to make guns. I’m sure its a lot of work learning to use a bow in real life. After all, the skill level required to use one effectively -is- high. Thats why guns are so useful. But its much more work to make a gun. Though I may be missing something.

I also don’t understand why short-bows would be an end-game object. (from the first post) but I am probably just missing something.