Craftable power armor, factions and balance issues

[Coolthulhu]

3) Neither of those points is relevant to the PC’s inability to craft powered armor. We get it: you really really REALLY wanna make your own PA. We shan’t stop you from forking DDA and making your own version, wherein PA is craftable. If folks like it enough, you may end up with the primary fork, inherit Kevin’s role, and be in a position to ask us to code for you. (Some of us might even accept!)

Or maybe just a “craftable futuristic stuff” mod…

[KA101]

[quote=“KA101, post:20, topic:8609”]3) Neither of those points is relevant to the PC’s inability to craft powered armor. We get it: you really really REALLY wanna make your own PA. We shan’t stop you from forking DDA and making your own version, wherein PA is craftable. If folks like it enough, you may end up with the primary fork, inherit Kevin’s role, and be in a position to ask us to code for you. (Some of us might even accept!)

Or maybe just a “craftable futuristic stuff” mod…[/quote]

I’m not interested in maintaining it, and main-dev maintenance is entailed in mods getting merged as mods. (Icecoon hasn’t bothered to show up, yet the weapons pack gets bugfixes. I’ve done a few.)

[iceball3]

I am smelling some bits of hostility in the past few posts, but maybe it is just me.

[quote=“KA101, post:18, topic:8609”]Pretty much this. We said no crafting PA, we meant it, and we continue to mean it. If you’d prefer we start getting rid of current player capabilities that you might use to argue the point, I’m prepared to do so.

No means no.[/quote]So does that mean neutering pretty much all higher level electronics and tailoring recipes? AND vehicles?
I mean i get that it wouldn’t make much sense to build PA to the same level as existing ones (nonwithstanding access to a stocked industrial facility but THAT is another story…), but, i mean, that is an awful lot of recipes at stake just so that people can’t build “motor assisted armor”, which at best is probably just Heavy Survivor armor rigged with a powered exoskeleton to cut encumbrance by one or two points.
That said i am not begging you guys to make anything of the sort, but i find it rather… peculiar, how closed the discussion is about it, enough so to make what i think are threats? Ah well.
Maybe i should give it a shot. I’ll open a topic when i got anything worth showing

[KA101]

Or it could mean showing respect for a design decision which the devs (including myself) discussed and agreed upon. Such respect is as simple as making the change your own mod, and not demanding that we include it in our supported mods or mainline. You could even post a thread and download link in the Lab, and that’s fine.

That’s all we ask.

DDA is CC-BY-SA, so as long as you leave attribution intact and don’t keep others from similarly using it, we don’t much care what you do with your own fork. We just enforce what we’re willing to do.

[iceball3]

[quote=“KA101, post:24, topic:8609”]Or it could mean showing respect for a design decision which the devs (including myself) discussed and agreed upon. Such respect is as simple as making the change your own mod, and not demanding that we include it in our supported mods or mainline. You could even post a thread and download link in the Lab, and that’s fine.

That’s all we ask.

DDA is CC-BY-SA, so as long as you leave attribution intact and don’t keep others from similarly using it, we don’t much care what you do with your own fork. We just enforce what we’re willing to do.[/quote]Settle down now, i already said i wasn’t demanding anything. Just seeking out understanding.

[kevin.granade]

That said i am not begging you guys to make anything of the sort, but i find it rather… peculiar, how closed the discussion is about it, enough so to make what i think are threats? Ah well.

The apparent “closedness” of the discussion is a result of us having a discussion about the issue on github only to have it reopened here for an unstated reason. This is happening in parallel with a number of different forum threads and github issues that have all been meritless on their face, and which have not shown a reasonable amount of productive discussion happening, just a lot of words thrown back and forth.
At a certain point the discussion devolves to “no”, at which point there’s nothing left to say.

[Synthetic]

I’d rather not have craftable power armor. I think the spawns need to be decreased as well, because I just wear mine everywhere carelessly. If I run into a spitter zombie, then oh well the nearest bank vault isn’t too far and there’s almost always more powered armor inside. It’s a little cheap to be able to wear armor that is impervious to everything and not have to worry about maintaining it.

If some kind of survivor power armor were added, I might be okay with it if it was ridiculously power hungry and too heavy to wear un-powered. I don’t think it’d be extremely useful right now, but in future versions that might make a nice last-resort base-defense weapon when invaded by a bunch of well-armed bandits or something.

[Stretop]

1) There are no “stocks” of PA as it was only in prototype-production (and possibly being passed on, hence rare appearance in milsurps) when the Cataclysm hit.

Well, this cannot be true. Game world is in 30-years-later future. And power armors are being designed right now as we speak. They will be in prototype-production in 5 years (10 years tops) and in mass-production - in 15-20 years. Yes, by the start of the game they would be “bleeding edge technology” of around 15 years ago. Their appearance in milsurps therefore looks more like they are being decommissioned due to army starting to use “second generation” PAs (“Heavy PA” and “Light PA” models).

2) Further, the OG doesn’t actually have a lot of military available. Most of The Troops were deployed to Korea: impending conflict with NK/PRC immediately before the Cataclysm. Most every soldier/zombie soldier you see is National Guard. Bio-operators are special-ops of various flavors, but they’re not line-animals.

They still have the most of surviving human population under their banner, haven’t they?

3) Neither of those points is relevant to the PC’s inability to craft powered armor. We get it: you really really REALLY wanna make your own PA.

No, you did not get it at all. What I really really REALLY is for every part and aspect of game-world to be consistent with itself and with everything else in game and in design document. And right now design document is not even consistent with itself. For example: how is that possible for player to achieve transcendence if you are limiting him to scavenging? How is game-world realistic, if something that should have been news of 15 years ago is “bleeding edge technology”?

If you’d prefer we start getting rid of current player capabilities that you might use to argue the point, I’m prepared to do so.

Just to be sure: are you prepared to remove all electronics that cannot be realisicaly crafted with only soldering iron (including all currently craftable CBMs)? Are you prepared to remove turrents, charge rifles, manhacks?

Or it could mean showing respect for a design decision which the devs (including myself) discussed and agreed upon.

What actually worries me is logic behind that decision. How did you end up thinking that to craft motorised armor is more difficult than to craft turret with friend-or-foe recognition?

The apparent “closedness” of the discussion is a result of us having a discussion about the issue on github only to have it reopened here for an unstated reason.

The reason was stated clearly: you seems to have misconceptions about how power armor is constructed. I am trying to unravel those misconceptions and you are answering with agression.

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:26, topic:8609”]This is happening in parallel with a number of different forum threads and github issues that have all been meritless on their face, and which have not shown a reasonable amount of productive discussion happening, just a lot of words thrown back and forth.
At a certain point the discussion devolves to “no”, at which point there’s nothing left to say.[/quote]

Why is that happening, I wonder… Maybe because someone is running out of any arguments (due to them being systematically debunked one-by-one) and then, unable to come up with something to support his position, uses his “no because no” undefeatable strategy? =)

It’s a little cheap to be able to wear armor that is impervious to everything and not have to worry about maintaining it.

This is, again, proposing a wrong solution for wrong problem.

Problem with power armor is that it is completely (and unrealistically) does not need any kind of operational and preventive maintenance. And this is what makes it so overpowered “item for everyday use”. Real-world military equipment requires more time for maintenance that it spends actualy being used. If such aspect would be implemented in in-game PAs - they would stop being “the last costume you’ll ever wear” and become more of Eleventh Hour Superpower to be used with extreme discretion.

[Darkfirephoenix]

super info snip

Yes, yes and YES!
I also find it hard to believe that a survivor is able to craft a turret/manhack that has friend/foe recog, can perfectly fly on its own (manhack) and can PERFECTLY tell that this fully canine mutant is it’s creator that left 5 days ago without any hint that he really is it.

And as I already stated: I’m for the ability to craft “low-tech” power armor (or should I better call them mechanised exoskelletons?), especially if you take a look at what we can already craft ingame: Electric motors (needed to support the movement), different kinds of frames (to make the structure) and electronics.

So giving us the abiliy to make a makeshift/bootleg “power armor” would be only logically (not directly a power armor like it is in-game but some sort of weaker version of it). I mean: COME ON! There are multiple CIVILIANS today that make their own exoskelletons already (and plan on starting businesses with making them, some even designed for paralysed people! But those are atm still a bit clunky.), with todays “lowtech” (compared to the tech in 30 years) and without the perfect materials.

So to sum my point up:

1. Power armor like ingame present craft able: NO
2. Makeshift/bootleg “power armor” (exoskelleton coated in makeshift armor) craft able: YES
3. Reason why: Because today already CIVILIANS can make those things (even if they aren’t perfect yet)

[Stretop]

COME ON! There are multiple CIVILIANS today that make their own exoskelletons already (and plan on starting businesses with making them, some even designed for paralysed people! But those are atm still a bit clunky.), with todays “lowtech” (compared to the tech in 30 years) and without the perfect materials.

Yes. This. Exactly this. Thefore, as compromise, I offer two things.

1. Make military power armors very maintance-heavy (as military equipment should be) and difficult to repair (and require special tools for that). Kind of “high-level reward for assisting Old Guard” (and for Cataclyzm’s sake, remove them from milsurps as soon as factions are in-game).
2. Make craftable survivor power armor (or “motorised exoskeleton-assisted survivor heavy armor”, or whatever) that would be less defensive but more sturdy, need less maintance (but still need it) and can be repaired with easy-to-get materials and equipment.

[John_Candlebury]

The only way I coud see the player making their own power armor (and other high tech prototype technology) would be if they somewhat managed to break into the manufacturers (Double-tech in this case) lab or factory, somehow found the complete schematics for every single part, restored the plant to working order, and then brought a faction in to operate machinery; then you could perhaps build a few subpar suits, and you would be limited by the stock of materials and/or parts the factory didn’t create itself.

[Nickal]

If you broke in you’d probably find some partially, mostly, or even fully complete armors.

[KA101]

If you broke in you’d probably find some partially, mostly, or even fully complete armors.

Exactly. There’s no need to get the factory back to fully-operational status, and if you did the logistics simply aren’t going to work.

[Darkfirephoenix]

The only way I coud see the player making their own power armor (and other high tech prototype technology) would be if they somewhat managed to break into the manufacturers (Double-tech in this case) lab or factory, somehow found the complete schematics for every single part, restored the plant to working order, and then brought a faction in to operate machinery; then you could perhaps build a few subpar suits, and you would be limited by the stock of materials and/or parts the factory didn’t create itself.

[quote=“Nickal, post:32, topic:8609”]If you broke in you’d probably find some partially, mostly, or even fully complete armors.

Exactly. There’s no need to get the factory back to fully-operational status, and if you did the logistics simply aren’t going to work.[/quote]

My good persons, one question: Did you not hear what Stretop and I concluded before your comments?

REAL power armor making: NO, or at least ultra hard!

MAKESHIFT/BOOTLEG power armor (or better yet a low tech exoskelleton that you can already make in RL with not even perfect components): YES PLEASE!
It would just support your carry weight/strenght stat but impare dexterity and you could wear it over your clothes, but also with some imparement hits.
Maybe even a survivor class of it that is armored like the survivor gear (put on some metal/kevlar/nomex pieces).

[EkarusRyndren]

… …I could have sworn someone already had this argument…

[iceball3]

[quote=“EkarusRyndren, post:35, topic:8609”]… …I could have sworn someone already had this argument…[/quote]would that be from the statement referring to how the argument was made before?
Yowzers though, i got a feeling this may turbulate into a shit storm, i suggest everyone calm down a bit so we don’t go acting out of emotional urge eh?
Not talking about you space lizzard, you’re fine.

[EkarusRyndren]

[quote=“iceball3, post:36, topic:8609”][quote=“EkarusRyndren, post:35, topic:8609”]… …I could have sworn someone already had this argument…[/quote]would that be from the statement referring to how the argument was made before?
Yowzers though, i got a feeling this may turbulate into a shit storm, i suggest everyone calm down a bit so we don’t go acting out of emotional urge eh?
Not talking about you space lizzard, you’re fine.[/quote]

Somebody was talking about exoskeletons in another thread and it eventually boiled down to “Yeah, you could build a garage exo but it’d be a peice of shit that really wasn’t worthwhile”

[Darkfirephoenix]

Yowzers though, i got a feeling this may turbulate into a shit storm, i suggest everyone calm down a bit so we don’t go acting out of emotional urge eh?

I’m calm. I just wanted to clarify the misunderstanding, because I find it strange that some people start arguing AGAIN about making the real power armors when Stretop and I concluded that we don’t want that. We want “makeshift” power armor / exoskelletons that are doable with the ability/resources a civilian has today.

Real power armor should be, at least, (near) impossible to selfmake ingame.
Assembling one from given parts: Yes.
Making one from scratch: No
Simple as that.

Somebody was talking about exoskeletons in another thread and it eventually boiled down to “Yeah, you could build a garage exo but it’d be a peice of shit that really wasn’t worthwhile”

Did they take into account that this game plays in the future and you may have access to better materials?
Also: Sure PURELY selfmade exo w/could be crap, unless you get some parts that are better than your garage stuff or you have access to good machinery to make parts. (a faction with a good workshop could make some acceptable exos with it for example [if we reach that point])

[KA101]

Previous thread, happened last month even.

Answer was that a garage exosuit (not PA, basically a lifting frame) would be extremely resource-intensive to build and fuel, with little to no benefit: cost-ineffective.

It’s not worth our time to implement. The currently-existing depowered armor, well, I’m not sure why I’d want to use it but I guess folks with low ST might find it interesting.

End of the day, we’ve repeatedly said no to PA-crafting being acceptable in DDA. We meant it, every time. And that’s not going to change. We’ve already invited Stretop and anyone else interested to make their own mod/fork, hosted on their own (feel free to post a link in the Lab), that permits crafting powered armor.

Best of luck.

[John_Candlebury]

I cant figure out how making a bootleg power exoskeleton would be any easier than the military grade one. As the (IMO) harder design aspects still exist:

-How to make a suit that can support its own weight and enhance its wearer strength, without breaking your knees every time you try to move.

-Making the (presumably very heavy) thing efficient enough to work without requiring the power output of a hydro dam.

-Designing an UI that you could use while fighting (AFAIK, existing prosthetic and suits either are grafted directly into your nervous system, use the motion of certain muscles in your body to control the movement of your legs, or use handheld controls; none of them practical for fighting in).

You could steal this technology, but you’ll have to do what I mentioned earlier; and KA101 and Nickal already mentioned why that is impractical and most likely impossible.

Plus, if it has taken at least 50 years (and billions of dollars, presumably) to develop the technology for things like the ReWAlk. What makes you thing that a survivor would be able to build one in a cave with only a box of scraps?