Craftable power armor, factions and balance issues

Game Talk The Drawing Board
1

Several times already I heard argument “You cannot craft PA because it requires machining” and “game is too easy as it is”. I have done my research and here I am going to address both those considerations.

1. Crafting a Power Armor.

As a foreword I would like to say, that Power Armor crafting is, indeed, difficult, but not for the reasons presented in design document or brought up on github.

Any real world modern day attempt of power armor consists of four principal parts:

  1. Frame.
  2. Shell.
  3. Internal electronics (motors, climate control, wiring).
  4. Controller (for said electronics).

Now let’s see step-by-step creation of such armor:

  1. Construction of frame.

On this step metal frame that would be powered by motors and would carry the weight of armored shell is constructed. For the most part said frame is simply the set of size-appropriate (for future user) pairs of steel tubes or other similary rigid and sturdy metal structures. If you can create rigid body armor (like metal body armor or heavy survivor suit) and can create metal frames - you have both understanding of your own body anatomy and biomechanics and of creating metal frame constructions to craft such power armor frame.

  1. Motorisation of crafted frame.

On this step you install electric motors, wiring and power source for them in your power armor frame along with controller (probably salvaged from another power armor) for all those electronics. As a result - you end up with something like this (plus motorisation for arms, of course). Essentially, if you can create and install controllable electric motors in frame constructions (like you do in your vehicle) - you can do this step.

  1. Adding armored shell to crafted motorised frame.

On this step you craft “soft” (for joints) and “hard” (for everything else) parts of outer (armored) shell and attach them to motorised frame. Again, if you can craft full-body armors (like heavy survivor suit crafted out of Kevlar plates) - you can craft this as well.

  1. Final step: programming controller of all this to work.

And this is where things get difficult. I specifically draw your attention to this: constructing an armor is the easy part - at the end it is simply suit-formed metal and electronics inside it. Programming it to work is the difficult part.

At this step we have unprogrammed (but otherwise completed) power armor. It would work exactly like “salvaged power armor” but would be somewhat heavier (due to all that electronic stuffing). So now we need high “computers” skill (which, at its higher ranks represents skills at programming) and suitable programming device.

And this (at the moment) is stopping point. Not “powered machining”, not “precise machining”, but this: absence of device programmers for powered armor controllers. But such things are reguired for repairing and maintenance of said Power Armors, so as soon as factions are in game, thay should be acquirable from “Old Guard” faction bases.

2. Balance issues.

Some say that “endgame is too easy” and flak KA101 for it. I would say that it is because not only “endgame” but even “middlegame” is not really implemented yet. And what is going to change everything?

Factions. They are going to change everything. Someone now bragging that he is demigod because he have all good mutations, tons of CBMs and can go toe-to-toe with zombie hulk? Get him acquainted with Old Guard’s 4-men squad in power armors and with military-grade assault rifles. Not so godlike now, are we?

And now on the more serious note: some might ask, why I am so insistent on craftability of power armors and even XL power armors.
Consider power balance of factions:

  1. Consider Old Guard. They pretty much have it all: CBMs, bots, power armors, military-grade equipment (and whatever indutrial capabilities have survived to produce more of all this) and (most probaly) sheer numbers: most part of unchenged remnants of humanity is most probably going to support those they are familiar with.
  2. Now consider abstract mutant faction. Mutations - irregular, whatever they had luck with (and many of them are actually counter-productive). CBMs and equipment - whatever thay can salvage. Limited numbers. In fact, entire base of such faction can be leveled to the ground by one tank-bot. What they could counter it with?

I would say: huge mutant in power armor, armed with anti-tank rifle, refitted to be portable and usable by huge creatures.

And this is why power armors should be customisable and recraftable for mutant anatomy.

2

Ahh yes the loved question: Should power armor be craftable? Yes, no?
As you stated it should be “relatively” easy to make the hardware (if you have the needed skills and materials), but that would resoult in some kind of bootleg/makeshift/survivor power armor. You can’t realy work that precise as the machines that were used for the REAL power armors, which would result in some lower/higher stats (a bit more difficult to move in, has more weight, less protection etc.). Also I would love to see the ability to make your own “add-ons” for power armors, the hauling frame isn’t enough for me, so why not “upgrade” it (or make your own if you never found one).

And as you already pointed out: The real problem is the programming. I find it rather strange that you for example can make your own manhacks/turrets WITHOUT the need of some sort of software and a power armor would “only” require some control programs for its functions (where turrets/manhacks would need that too, a smart program for pathfinding etc. AND some kind of friend/foe scan software).

So I would like the ability to make your own TERMINALS (or a portable PC, a laptop, a vehicle terminal) at which you could organise programs form usb drives/SD-cards and even make your own programs. Such programming would take computer skill (yay for more uses for it), time and maybe another skill depending on what the program should do. (hacking program would take only a HIGH programming skill, med-soft takes first aid, machine-control programs takes mechanics/electronics and smart program would take the same but higher) Ofc making a program would take quiet some time (hours if not even DAYS, so I suggest some sort of “progress save” for it) simply because you can’t allow any mistakes in the code (would be really bad if you goof up the friend/foe of a turret).

3

[quote=“Darkfirephoenix, post:2, topic:8609”]Ahh yes the loved question: Should power armor be craftable? Yes, no?
As you stated it should be “relatively” easy to make the hardware (if you have the needed skills and materials), but that would resoult in some kind of bootleg/makeshift/survivor power armor. You can’t realy work that precise as the machines that were used for the REAL power armors, which would result in some lower/higher stats (a bit more difficult to move in, has more weight, less protection etc.). Also I would love to see the ability to make your own “add-ons” for power armors, the hauling frame isn’t enough for me, so why not “upgrade” it (or make your own if you never found one).

And as you already pointed out: The real problem is the programming. I find it rather strange that you for example can make your own manhacks/turrets WITHOUT the need of some sort of software and a power armor would “only” require some control programs for its functions (where turrets/manhacks would need that too, a smart program for pathfinding etc. AND some kind of friend/foe scan software).

So I would like the ability to make your own TERMINALS (or a portable PC, a laptop, a vehicle terminal) at which you could organise programs form usb drives/SD-cards and even make your own programs. Such programming would take computer skill (yay for more uses for it), time and maybe another skill depending on what the program should do. (hacking program would take only a HIGH programming skill, med-soft takes first aid, machine-control programs takes mechanics/electronics and smart program would take the same but higher) Ofc making a program would take quiet some time (hours if not even DAYS, so I suggest some sort of “progress save” for it) simply because you can’t allow any mistakes in the code (would be really bad if you goof up the friend/foe of a turret).[/quote]

Well, you don’t wear a turret. You wear power armour. One of the big issues with power armour is that you want to empower the wearer without turning the wearer into a tin can filled with human meat pudding.

4

Power armor are kinda “self preventing” that from happening thanks to their construction: They are constructed to offer NEARLY the same mobility of a human without it but with more power behind it. A power armor can’t crush it’s wearer as long as it’s properly made mechanical speaking, even if you have no perfect control program.

But regarding the program needed for a (selfmade)power armor: It would most likely react to the pressure when you move a arm into a direction for example. So the armor would register your motion and support it, which would result in some lower stats than the “real” power armors have.
The “real” power armors ingame on the other hand work via direct skin contact and high class electronics which register (I imagine) the electrical impulses from you (that’s the reason you have to be naked to wear them) so it can move more like a “second skin”.

Now to the turrets/manhacks: The need some kind of recognition software (facial recog etc.), a program for movement-calculation in a 3 dimensional space (manhacks), control progamms for the movement of the gun, aiming program etc.

As you see making robots/turrets work different than a suit that is directly controlled by you, simply by the fact that the robots/turrets have to operate WITHOUT you giving them constant orders/controlling them.

5

Yes, power armour can crush it’s wearer without proper control programs. How should a mechanical exoskeleton with armour plates know how a human can or can’t bend?

6

And where exactly in this process do you see the need for such extreme precision?

That is the question that I am very interested in. I constanly hear about the need for “precise machining”, but no one seems to be able to pinpoint where exactly it is needed in power armor.

7

[quote=“Stretop, post:6, topic:8609”]And where exactly in this process do you see the need for such extreme precision?

That is the question that I am very interested in. I constanly hear about the need for “precise machining”, but no one seems to be able to pinpoint where exactly it is needed in power armor.[/quote]
It’s used in most of it. Those armors are made with components specifically made for their task and some of them require precise machines to be made, for example: the stabilisers, sure you can make one of your own BUT they will be bigger/bulkier than the ones machines can make. To be more exact you CAN make a power armor without precise machines BUT it will be bulkier because you can’t realy make so small and exact parts as the machines can make them. A human CAN’T work precise to the milimeters/nanometers that is needed in some parts, unlike a machine (it’s rare that people can work so precise, but even then they need the right precision tools and even THEN they can’t do it all the time. Aöso it’s extremely exhausting to work that concentrated).

Take a combustion engine for example: Yes a human can put it together but the parts need to be made from a machine (there is less than a milimeter between the piston and the engineblock in the combustion chamber. A human can put the piston in, but a machine has to make the piston so it can fit that perfect) to be efficient to the maximum.

So the conclusion is: Making power armor by yourself without precise machines: Possible, but it won’t be as good as the ones that ARE made with machines.
That would result in (as I already meantioned in a previous post) bootleg/makeshift/survivor power armor, the bootleg/makeshift would be a “imitation” of a real power armor, while the survivor power armor would be made to support your survival and higher quality (maybe some added storage spaces etc.)

8

Not to mention most of the power armor is likely made from alloys players can’t produce. (Basic Power armor isn’t even 5 pounds heavier than ornamental plate armor but protects you more than three times as well.) It would be entirely justified to simply change its material to superalloy or military composite.

9

[quote=“Logrin, post:8, topic:8609”]Not to mention most of the power armor is likely made from alloys players can’t produce. (Basic Power armor isn’t even 5 pounds heavier than ornamental plate armor but protects you more than three times as well.) It would be entirely justified to simply change its material to superalloy or military composite.[/quote]Wouldn’t we be able to salvage components from other damaged power armors to repair our own ones?

10

And all those can be salvaged from other Power Armors. PAs are military equipment and as such must be repairable. And to be repairable they must be able to be disassbled (so damaged parts can be replaced) and reassembled (like tanks, for example). So again precise machines needed for PA’s components not for Power Armor itself.

11

Steps to craft power armor:

  1. Find power armor
  2. Disassemble it
  3. Reassemble it

You now have power armor!

12

[quote=“vache, post:11, topic:8609”]Steps to craft power armor:

  1. Find power armor
  2. Disassemble it
  3. Reassemble it

You now have power armor![/quote]

That would be a good start, yes, but even this is absent for the game right now. And I am thinking about

  1. Find power armors
  2. Disassemble them
  3. Assemble XL power armor (fits) =)
13

I’d be OK with some kind of makeshift power armour that’s basically some survivor gear with mechanical servos and some thermal electric stuff, but nowhere near as powerful. The real deal is so ridiculously powerful that it has to be out of the player’s reach unless in a rare loot grab, unless some massive changes are made to the game’s late game at some point.

14

Prior to Cataclysm power armors were fabricated in bulk and provided to army in stock, so making them rare would be against the lore.

Why? Power armor is exactly this: gear with mechanical servos and some thermal electric stuff. If it is too powerful - it would be better to nerf actual power armor (whose defence ratings are overestimated anyway, I think).

Really?

15

I thought power armor was bleeding edge technology, and never reached mass production stage. Also, XL power armor doesn’t make sense. XL is kind of a catch all right now for clothing to support mutations. Are you going to make power armor with 8 tentacles for tentacle mutated people?

My argument against this is where would you draw the line where player crafting ends? Should the player be able to make the most powerful everything? There has to be some point where you can’t build everything you want, otherwise players can just clean out a single town and hole up in a basement for the rest of their life because they have no reason to go any further. Every time something like this goes in, the carrot on a stick dangling in front of the player enticing them to push on gets another bite taken out of it, and pretty soon there’s going to be no carrot. You can argue that “eventually there will be ____, so doing ____ now is okay”, and I don’t think it should work like that.

16

[quote=“vache, post:11, topic:8609”]Steps to craft power armor:

  1. Find power armor
  2. Disassemble it
  3. Reassemble it

You now have power armor![/quote]

Barring the third step, this is already in-game, and it’s how you get depowered armor.

17

And you just happen to stumble upon “bleeding edge technology” in local military surplus? =)

XL equipment in general does not make sense. It’s not a bug - it’s a feature =)

Why not? Simply make power armor with two sleeves - for 4 tentacles each.

Where post-Cataclysm manufacturing in general ends.

First. Do not decide for other players how they would play.

Second. Ah, again this “manufacturing kills scavening” argument. I am getting lazy, so I would simply copy/paste this from github:
"- This is not a game about manufacturing, this is a game about scavenging.

This game is about both, because you really cannot do one without the other. Without scavenging you would not have resources for manufacturing, and without manufacturing you would not have many things beyond very basics.
Also, consider this: survivor survived his first several weeks. He have all food and water supply he would ever need. Why would he want to keep scavenging? Well at first game was exactly like this. Do you remember, what was done next?
I will tell you: vehicles was implemented. Fully manufacturable, constructable, customizable vehicles. How is that for “not a game about manufacturing”? Did that kill scavenging? Nope. It intesified scavenging, because you would need a lot of resouces, if you are going to construct vehicle worthy the name."
tl;dr: manufacturing does not kill scavenging - it merely replaces scavenging for items with scavenging for resources for manufacturing.
Same thing here: you may think that praying to RNGod for needed item is fun, but I don’t think so.

18

[quote=“vache, post:15, topic:8609”]I thought power armor was bleeding edge technology, and never reached mass production stage. Also, XL power armor doesn’t make sense. XL is kind of a catch all right now for clothing to support mutations. Are you going to make power armor with 8 tentacles for tentacle mutated people?

My argument against this is where would you draw the line where player crafting ends? Should the player be able to make the most powerful everything? There has to be some point where you can’t build everything you want, otherwise players can just clean out a single town and hole up in a basement for the rest of their life because they have no reason to go any further. Every time something like this goes in, the carrot on a stick dangling in front of the player enticing them to push on gets another bite taken out of it, and pretty soon there’s going to be no carrot. You can argue that “eventually there will be ____, so doing ____ now is okay”, and I don’t think it should work like that.[/quote]

Pretty much this. We said no crafting PA, we meant it, and we continue to mean it. If you’d prefer we start getting rid of current player capabilities that you might use to argue the point, I’m prepared to do so.

No means no.

19

Okay, then how are you going to explain that “Old Guard” (with their access to stocks of PAs) does not simply grind any opposition into fine dust as soon as it appears?

20

Okay, then how are you going to explain that “Old Guard” (with their access to stocks of PAs) does not simply grind any opposition into fine dust as soon as it appears?[/quote]

  1. There are no “stocks” of PA as it was only in prototype-production (and possibly being passed on, hence rare appearance in milsurps) when the Cataclysm hit.

  2. Further, the OG doesn’t actually have a lot of military available. Most of The Troops were deployed to Korea: impending conflict with NK/PRC immediately before the Cataclysm. Most every soldier/zombie soldier you see is National Guard. Bio-operators are special-ops of various flavors, but they’re not line-animals.

  3. Neither of those points is relevant to the PC’s inability to craft powered armor. We get it: you really really REALLY wanna make your own PA. We shan’t stop you from forking DDA and making your own version, wherein PA is craftable. If folks like it enough, you may end up with the primary fork, inherit Kevin’s role, and be in a position to ask us to code for you. (Some of us might even accept!)