Breaching charges

[kevin.granade]

Continuing the discussion from Tactical Grenades:

[kevin.granade]

On the subject of breaching, what would be the possibility of sticking a grenade in a funnel and placing it on a metal door? Shaped charge fashion? Could require an adhesive and a string to make it work. Cheap, but one time use and LOUD.

Need some evidence it would work, sounds pretty sketchy.
Some kind of breaching charge, sure.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

Having the ability to control the direction of explosion would be nice. Would finally allow the LAW to work as intended. Implementing BACKBLAST flag would also be appreciate

[Rose]

If the funnel is strong enough, and the grenade has enough explosives, then yes, somewhat. But frag grenades are frag, not HEs. Their main power is the shrapnel, which won’t help you a lot in breaching metal doors.

[Theodore_William]

The directional aspect is what I was going for. Frags, naturally, won’t be substantial enough to cause that effect.

In regards to shape charges, their goal is to blow a hole, not necessarily blow the whole door out, so it could be used on hefty locks, or even on a brick wall to give you a small window/firing position. The cone keeps the breacher safe, so you could set up in the right position before rockin’ and rollin’.

As far as a general breach charge would go, I’d be happy with a single tile, localized charge applied to a door to begin with. Any kind of hole making could be implemented separately. Peep hole you can shoot through?

[DeWolf]

Don’t shapes charges require the explosive itself to be shaped. Also if we are going to be blowing holes in stuff in the cases of doors if the charge doesn’t just obliterate it wouldn’t we be able to reach through the hole and unlock it?

[Theodore_William]

https://worldoftanks.eu/dcont/fb/imagesforarticles/antitank_rounds/kumulativnimlazanimacija.gif?MEDIA_PREFIX=/dcont/fb/
DeWolf has a point. A grenade in and of itself would not work. We’d probably have to use C4 packed around a central steel cone. Nails for legs, igniter for a fuse.

[Edit:] The Krakatoa explosive device is actually pretty close to what I’m thinking. Plastic casing packed with C4 with a copper cone facing the target. The real device has legs, but I could imagine mounting it inside a large metal cone to make it safer for the breacher. The only thing that would survive the explosion would be the outer cone. In fact, a plastic casing may not be needed, as the Krakatoa is slightly smaller than a soda can. That would give the size and shape needed for the charge. All in all, it could be made of materials already available in-game.

[Rose]

Well, making a shaped charge is not easy, since precise calculation is needed for the shockwave to turn into the direct stream. Moreover, as you may know, cannon HEAT rounds (because the gif up there is from WoT site) do not penetrate the armour by the explosive wave, but cut through it with molten copper at some extreme pressure; the explosive is just needed to get the pressure high enough. So don’t expect to make something more than a C4 coated in steel to block the shockwave and redirect it to the single side.

[kevin.granade]

The cone keeps the breacher safe

If this is a substantial explosive, I feel like your “protective” cone is just going to turn into high-velocity fragments. The safe way to use a breaching charge is to not be next to it when it goes off.

Much like how a claymore has a substantial “keep out” area to the sides and rear, just because it directs a lot of force in one direction doesn’t mean it’s capable of preventing it from also going in the other direction.

[Theodore_William]

If this is a substantial explosive, I feel like your “protective” cone is just going to turn into high-velocity fragments. The safe way to use a breaching charge is to not be next to it when it goes off.

Solid point. Your standard water funnel would be rather sub par for explosive breaches. What could potentially be used as a coating?

Of course, this is under the idea that explosives are required to breach. I mean, metal doors, yeah. It would be nice. But for locks and such, could an underslung shotgun suffice? Masterkey style?

As far as explosive breaches, could SWAT vans occasionally carry breach charges that are ACTUAL breach charges? It could be something that you can’t craft at all. Perhaps buildings near a SWAT van could have unexploded charges inside? A breached door or two? Could present an extra little obstacle for the unwary…

[DeWolf]

This is also the basis of HEDP grenade launcher rounds, doubling as both HEAT and HE fragmentation’s rounds.

[Theodore_William]

I think the physics and construction of explosives would only matter if it was craftable and/or safe to use in close quarters. If breach charges were added, their function would be set. You apply it the object to be breached, get outside the danger zone, and push the button. If craftable/makeshift charges were implemented, that’s another ball game. And if it’s perfectly directional(no backblast or danger to the user), that’s another.

Back on the subject of grenade tactics, what other small actions could be considered for gameplay? Dropping down stairs and quickly tossing one into a room have been mentioned. Chucking a grenade on to a balcony would definitely need Z-level vision. Has hiding UNDER windows ever been discussed? Hiding underneath, then being able to peak up inside? If that was a thing, one could potentially hide and drop a grenade inside.

[Edit:] Not to say all explosives, but charges. The physics of penetrator rounds would still apply, and would be interesting to see. Just figured I’d clarify that.

[tarburst98]

there is a relatively safe breaching explosive. it’s a water filled tank with a ring of plastic explosive in a groove on the front of it. when it’s set off the wall it’s stuck to gets a man sized hole in it and the plastic water tank is blasted backwards. most of the force is directed forward into the wall due to the water acting as a shaper because it’s in-compressible so while you still wont want to be standing RIGHT next to it, you can be a LOT closer then if it was undirected C4 or something.

http://explosives.net/product/gatecrasher/

[Theodore_William]

Hmmmm…I like it. Could be used to break down reinforced gateways.

[kevin.granade]

there is a relatively safe breaching explosive.

There was no disagreement about that, just that something extremely simple like sticking a funnel over a grenade isn’t going to do it.

If the player gets themselves some c4 or similar and cbm learns how detonators work etc… we could add an action where they apply it manually and detonate from a distance.

In practice a lot of this sounds like overkill for any situation you’re going to encounter in the game. If you need to get through a wall and have this kind of resources and knowledge, it’s many times more efficient to drill and blast the wall instead.

[Fuscosco]

being able to apply c4 to a wall or door would be nice.

[Theodore_William]

In practice a lot of this sounds like overkill for any situation you’re going to encounter in the game. If you need to get through a wall and have this kind of resources and knowledge, it’s many times more efficient to drill and blast the wall instead.

A scenario that comes to mind is if you’re in a well built safe house and you have a horde outside. In that situation, I’d want to have multiple secure firing positions for my allies and I to hold down the fort. If you don’t have them and you can’t spend the time rebuilding, it’d be nice to have some kind of hole charge to punch out small windows. You wouldn’t be sacrificing the wall, and you’d get an extra defensive point. It’s probably another resource thing, but it would come in handy if you happen to have the resources.

[kevin.granade]

My point is that for any use of a breaching charge, drilling and blasting is more efficient. The reason to use an applied breaching charge is a combination of speed and stealth.

I’m not saying I’m against having the option, it just seems like overkill for any scenario I can think of.

[Theodore_William]

My point is that for any use of a breaching charge, drilling and blasting is more efficient. The reason to use an applied breaching charge is a combination of speed and stealth.

I’m not saying I’m against having the option, it just seems like overkill for any scenario I can think of.

If that’s the case, I’d love to have a drill and breach action. Would that work with grenades, assuming the hole is big enough?

Perhaps down the road, when NPCs have been worked on, we could have actual tactical breaching. Storming a marauder hideout while under fire, hostage situations, etc. I realize that that is WAY far out for CDDA, but would be interesting for endgame. Transitioning from trying to survive, to helping others survive, to saving lives and building an NPC community. At that point, I could definitely see you and a squad of troops storming a raider fortress and razing it like a pack of ninja wolves trying to save hostages.

Like I said, very endgame, very situational, very not-right-now.(Feel free to quote that.)

[kevin.granade]

If that’s the case, I’d love to have a drill and breach action.

That’s kind of my point, let’s get drill-and-blast implemented, it’s the more sensible option.

Would that work with grenades, assuming the hole is big enough?

Not a whole grenade, but it might be reasonable to pull the explosive part out of the casing and jam it into a drilled hole. That’s still suboptimal because what you really want to do is jam the explosive half way through the wall and then fill the hole behind it (this is called “tamping” IIRC), but it would certainly be a lot faster.

Sticks of dynamite OTOH would be perfect, it’s literally what they’re designed for.