Worthwhile Martial Arts for Inclusion (make your case here!)

Game Talk The Drawing Board
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Right now, there’s a lot of crazy instability in our martial arts systems. There’s a lot of martial arts that are worthless to take, certain martial arts that are missing, and a good deal could be easily combined.

So here is where you can make your arguments as to what martial art you want included in the game, and why you think it’s worth including. Additionally, discuss why we shouldn’t include some of the martial arts suggested - the point of this is to reduce the number of arts such that the player can make a meaningful choice between them, and we can implement them in unique and interesting ways. To that end, less is more! If you think somethings already covered, or something can be combined with something else, or that there’s a better alternative that fits the same niche already, please bring it up!

I think it’s worth including the following (not the actual effects are “game-ified” in an attempt to make them interesting):
Kickboxing - Includes systems like Muay Thai. Kickboxing allows players to attack and block with their legs instead of their arms, and can offer quite a bit to distinguish it from straightforward “unarmed fighting”. It’s also one of the more effective martial arts in the world.

Karate - Primarily a defensive martial art, focused on effective deflection and forcing openings, this martial art is made more effective by not being the one to attack first. While not focused on power, it would result in a very different feel for combat than the back-and-forth of regular unarmed or the raw power delivery of kickboxing. (From Kevin Granade) Can be used effectively while wielding a variety of weapons.

Jiu-Jitsu - Including variants such as Brazilian Jiujitsu. A martial art based around controlling the opponent, it’s quite effective against a single enemy or for ‘managing’ a larger group. With throws, take downs, grapples, hard strikes and the disabling of an enemy as a result of their attacks, this is a martial art based around control and tempo, and (again) if well implemented will provide a very different experience from any of the above.

Krav Maga - All about delivering vicious, quick, and powerful attacks even as you are defending, taking the enemy out as quickly as possible. We’ll ignore some of the aspects of Krav included in other items on the list (like jiu jitsu). I’d imagine it would let you get free attacks against enemies that you have successfully blocked, and deal a good amount of damage in return.

Systema - We’ve already got the Spetsnaz book in the game, why not include the martial art it’s from? A russian martial art, it’s the first on our list with a strong focus on weapon use, allowing you to use either your bare hands or, better yet, a knife to quickly disable opponents and render them incapable of action. Might also provide benefits to switching weapons, drawing your firearm, and recovering from recoil resulting from melee attacks and some other actions, allowing for more efficient transitions between melee and gunplay.

Capoiera - Let’s be honest, this isn’t a great martial art for combat! What it IS good for, though, is fighting in style. While it probably won’t be much better than regular fisticuffs, you might get a bit of a bonus to evasion and a slight penalty to attacks, but most importantly, you’ll get lots of awesome flavour text and descriptions!

Eskrima (also known as Arnis, Kali)- A weapon-based martial art from the phillipines, Eskrima means “fencing” - but this is far more. Effective at disarming enemies, it’s also capable with a very wide variety of weapons and includes effective means of dual-wielding. Probably one of the most effective modern martial arts dedicated to using weaponry in combat, esp. longer blades and blunt weapons. (as mentioned by Granade) Also has quite a few weapon-based locks and throws.

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Backyard Wrestling - aka brawling or streetfighting. Grabs, trips, stuns, and bonuses to hit/damage with weapons that aren’t really weapons. Want to run around wacking zombies with a 2x4 ala Hacksaw Jim Duggan? Do you think you have it in you to be so macho as to take on a Hulk(ster) with a steel folding chair? Powerbomb a Jabberwocky through a table? OH YEAAAAHHHHHH. This is a serious consideration though because, as there are plans to start incorporating melee styles, this would serve as a catch-all style for melee weapons that don’t fall under other styles like improvised stuff and baseball bats. Also I’d love to have a throw attack that lets you toss a grabbed enemy through windows, tables, etc. and wrestling is perfect for that.

Ninjutsu - Sort-of works as is. Needs a special (large) damage boost against targets that are “Ignorant” of the attacker to represent stealth assassinations. The quiet attacks are neat and the traits it has seem fine too. Would be the go-to style of night vision/light-steppers for tactical espionage action.

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A quick caveat: We’re comitted to supporting save compatability at least from 0.8 to 0.9, so the “classic” martial arts will still be in the game regardless of the coutcome of this at least until 0.9, but might only be avaialable if grandfathered in via loading an old save.

T’ai chi chuan: With a very heavy focus on both mobility and “adjusting” the position of your opponent, t’ai chi would shine in situations where damaging enemies might be fairly pointless, but you just want them out of your way. Also has a strong emphasis on redirecting then opponent’s force rather than exerting your own, so would be better suited to less physically imposing but more perceptive characters. t’ai chi chuan also incorporates weapons into it’s practice, though for stylistic purposes that should probably be restricted to swords similar to the chinese broadsword.

Bagua zhang: Related to t’ai chi chuan, but in practice very different. Bagua zhang emphasizes fighting while in continuous movement, so again is highly suited to slipping through crowds of the undead unscathed, also a strong emphasis on sequentially engaging multiple opponents in rapid succession.

Escrima: It not only trains with weapons, but incorporates them heavily into its locks and throws.

Karate: Traditional Karate focuses pretty heavily on a wide variety of weapons as well.

Boxing: A somewhat restrictive, but still effective unarmed style, boxing focuses on dodging and blocking blows from a single opponent and delivering lightning-fast punches. To me the key is that it would be good to have around as a much easier to find style.

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Included your comments on Escrima and Karate in the OP.

T’ai chi is something I can certainly see the benefit of as what as sort of an “almost purely defensive” style, meant for getting through and by enemies rather than engaging, and is certainly a niche that should be filled.

Would need to hear more about Bagua Zhang before I was convinced - what sort of benefits (specifically) were you thinking it could give you?

Boxing I’m not so sure about, mostly because it seems like “boxing” is fairly close to what most people would consider the default “unarmed” punching-things-in-the-face style. I’d want to know more about what would make it special.

From An0n3 - Backyard Wrestling doesn’t really seem like much of a martial art here, and most of the results could probably be rolled into the default style, which I sort of imagine as common american boxing for strikes and wrestling for takedowns and throws. What would be the actual thing that gaining skill with wrestling gives you if it were a full style?

Ninjitsu, I’m gonna just say no as-is. We don’t really have the sort of situation that can support what you described. That might change, at which point it could be reconsidered, but at least for now I don’t think it works.

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RE: Backyard wrestling

Proabably a more traditional wrestling style focused on stuns, takedowns, power attacks, and damage to downed opponents would make more sense. The sort of wrestling techniques MMA fighers employ.

My thought with backyard wrestling is for something that has a bunch of bizarre modifiers for certain situations and would be fun/challenging to use (kinda like how Capoiera is). Bonus damage while standing on rough terrain like furniture and wrecks and (like I said) giving all those weapons formal styles are likely to ignore a place to roost.

RE: Ninjutsu

If you say so. Currently it’s pretty useless because the unique bonus it gives just doesn’t help the player much. In my experience the sound of beating up a zombie is only heard long after they’ve been smashing through windows or my footsteps/scent were detected anyway.

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Boxing is at least as different from untrained fistfighting as any other sport-based martial art is. There’s a lot more to it than “punching in the face.” As a fighting style, it focuses on footwork, endurance, and momentum.

“Jiu-Jitsu” is a bad romanization of jujutsu that is currently just used in referring to BJJ. Jujutsu is also very similar to judo.

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Mechanically Bagua would derive the vast majority of its benefits from a cumulative move bonus to dodge and block, and possibly also to attack accuracy and move speed. The likely tactic you would follow would be to thread your way through enemies fishing for counterattacks, only occasionally stoping for a quick attack, or possibly not attacking directly at all.

A side note, bagua is a pretty rare style, it’s pretty hard to find someone to teach it outside of areas with a large kung fu community (SF comes to mind).

On backyard wrestling, if you’re wrestling with the intent to kill your opponent, I think that’s pretty much what it’s going to look like, smashing them against obstacles and such, so I don’t really see a need for a specific “backyard wrestling” style, might as well have a “pro wrestling” style that just goes “you attempt to initiate a reverse german suplex with a half twist, but the zombie doesn’t cooperate and you fall over”… Actully yes, we should do that.

Re boxing, I agree boxing shouldn’t just be rolled into the default brawling style (or wrestling for that matter), regardless of the fact that it’s sport fighting, it is a real martial art. (same can be said of modern karate and taekwando)

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US Army Combatives - The fighting style used by the US military. It focuses on unarmed combat mixed with modern weaponry like knives and firearms. A lot of the unarmed stuff focuses on joint locks and grappling holds that immobilize your foe while you apply leverage to potentially snap joints such. And it’s all about firearms too, stuff like the proper way to club somebody with a rifle or keep them in your sights while they’re trying to rush you in close. Big benefit here would be how easy it would be to find training, since it’s the US soldier’s martial art.

Samooborona Bez Oruzhiya (SAMBO) or Systema - I’m going to second this one. It’s a modern Russian martial arts that basically focus around waiting for your opponent to stick a limb out where you can reach it, then tying them into knots while simultaneously caving in their skull/ribcage/pelvis/whatever with strikes. Also has a lot of weapon drills with modern weaponry. This is what the Spetsnaz uses, so you know it’s some scary stuff. Probably a bit more rare than some, but it seems that the MMA craze has made it rather popular in the last few years.

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I’m wondering if it might be worthwhile combining Systema/US Military Martial arts/etc. into some sort of combined “Modern Military Martial Techniques” (3MT) that is unique to the Cataclysm time period (remember, the game is set in the FUTURE!)

Basically, a “military synthesis martial art” that exhibits those properties rather than using any one in particular.

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If it’s good enough for Bayman, it’s good enough for Cataclysm.

How can we differentiate them?

Krav Maga vs Sambo vs US Infantry Fighting

I agree that IRL they’re very different but in-game they might end up too similar. Thoughts?

EDIT: Glyph took the words out of my mouth.

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Being good at general fisticuffs and unarmed fighting requires effective footwork, endurance, and momentum.

Now, I’m not opposed to boxing, I’d like it to go in, but I’m having trouble figuring out why it should go in - I’m still not sure what benefits it would offer mechanically that we don’t already want offered by simply being a good unarmed fighter. While it certainly has it’s own tradition, it is (in large part) a subset of the skills that most people simply by being good at fisticuffs. If it goes in, it’s going to need some part of it that is different, unique, and special, that makes it stand out enough that it’s worth taking over one of the other styles.

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Rapid Attack, Block, Precision Attack

Damage to unarmed attacks based on STR and DEX
Gets a bonus to dodge when moving
A succesful dodge grants an extra attack

“Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.”

A trained boxer isn’t just a guy punching things. They counter-punch and draw opponents into making mistakes before going for the KO. Setup like this, the player would evolve into a great counter-puncher like Ali or Tyson’s early career.

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Regarding Boxing: you could also add in feints as well as the ability to step into an opponent’s attack before they finish swinging fully (thus lowering the damage dealt severely)

You could also add in a powerful pinpoint uppercut that rattles the opponents brain and slows down an enemies speed for a turn or two (or even stuns them.) (This would only work on enemies with a head that are around your size or larger).

Maybe even a sway back type move that increases your dodge when fighting an enemy 1 vs 1.

You could also add in a dempsey roll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaG4hC_JBR8 (Because why not?)

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I still can’t wrap my head around the 0-sum reasoning of “every style must be unique to be included”.
I’ll buy that we don’t want to include every single obscure kung fu style, and even less so imaginary ones, but when you seriously question the inclusion of arguably the most popular martial art in the world (yes, boxing), you need to take a look at your priorities.

The thing that differentiates boxing from street brawling is it’s BETTER. If you’re trained systematically to work with the kinematics of the human body, you are going to pound-for-pound be more effective than someone who has a similar amount of training with what “seems to work”, so boxing would most likey play very similarly to the default brawling style, but be more effective and quite likely more specialised. I’m at a total loss for why that’s a bad thing.

Ninja’ed: I was just waiting for the Hajime no Ippo reference >_<

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[quote=“gammaflux, post:13, topic:3299”]Regarding Boxing: you could also add in feints as well as the ability to step into an opponent’s attack before they finish swinging fully (thus lowering the damage dealt severely)

You could also add in a powerful pinpoint uppercut that rattles the opponents brain and slows down an enemies speed for a turn or two (or even stuns them.) (This would only work on enemies with a head that are around your size or larger).

Maybe even a sway back type move that increases your dodge when fighting an enemy 1 vs 1.

You could also add in a dempsey roll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaG4hC_JBR8 (Because why not?)[/quote]

Feints are in game. When you miss an attack there’s a chance you just feint instead and get a faster follow-up attack. It doesn’t function quite like you said but read on…

The uppercut you mentioned is basically a Precise Attack, which does just what you described. On a crit it hits harder and stuns the target.

As far as baiting someone 1v1 there’s two abilities that, if added together like I mentioned would work that way. Capoiera has a function that moving increases your dodge. Another style (IIRC, I can’t remember which) gives you bonus attacks for successful dodges. Put the two together and now you can seriously dempsey roll, just move back and forth to dodge 1v1 and then land your counter combo.

Damn now I really want to use this boxing.

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Also another post: I fully support AnOn3’s wrestling idea. Knocking zombies into tables and lockers would be awesome. Besides, when Z levels are included it would be pretty amazing if you could toss enemies out the window or off a roof or something of the like. Not to mention being able to do this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB7jlMX1wB0 (and this is my last youtube link for now :P)

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So knocking zombies would be a stronger version of pushing?

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Not knocking or pushing but throwing.

Maybe if a grab attack procs there’s another chance it can crit, and you get to hurl your opponent a short distance based on their weight (but with a little bonus to make it fun). You’re not going to hurl a Hulk 10 spaces into a wall but 2-3 spaces into a window or side of a car would be cool and effective.

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On throwing enemies around:
It’s going to be something everyone can do.

On boxing:
Kevin, the problem with boxing “just being better” is that there is no choice there. Especially since most of a players skill with a martial art style is going to come from…

Hmmm.

Actually, how do skills effect martial arts since the rewrite? What’s the formula being used and how are they trained?

What you’re saying would make sense IF a Martial Art was only improved by training with a character that knows the skill better, but “unarmed” (or the appropriate weapons skill) played a significant role in boosting the effect, that sort of breakdown would make sense. But I’ve just realized I don’t actually know how that is being handled right now. But I’d be okay with it being a strict improvement IF it was only by virtue of formal training.

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Yessssss, my plan to spoil upcoming features by consistently suggesting good things is working.

There’s no reason anyone would normally choose NOT to have a training in a style (boxing over regular ol’ unarmed). That’s why these things cost points to get at character creation, no? They’re advantages.

As far as I know not having a style doesn’t give you any of those all-important melee traits and abilities. Unless that’s going to change? Will a style-less fighter actually have moves and such in the future?