Utility Items Sorely Needed

[detahramet]

Or just use the sink.

[deadmerits]

And to imagine I was once scrutinized for suggesting that bathing should reduce the scent radius.

But on a more serious note, starting fires with flint and steel, and having access to kindling and timber seems to make the world more real. Rather then worrying about balance and duplicate means of doing the same thing, it would certainly make Cataclysm: DDA seem more like a simulator of real life during the “Cataclysm.”

[i2amroy]

But I’m not sure adding urin and excrement adds much to the game.

Pretty much this. One of the basic rules of good open-world game development is “The Player should never be ‘forced’ to do something”. Forcing the player to stop whatever they are doing and go to the bathroom twice a day or else suffer extreme penalties does not in any way enhance gameplay for the average player. All it simply does is force the player to perform a repetitive, un-fun task or be punished. Positive rewards on doing something, however, are allowed. This is why bathing might be added in eventually as something you can do to receive rewards (morale bonus + scent reduction), but it will never be added in as a “bathe or suffer heavy morale penalties + scent increases”.

Note that “The Player should never be ‘forced’ to do something” (This is sometimes also called the “or else” rule, since it can always be worded as "The player needs to do this or else something bad will happen) should not be confused with “The Player doesn’t have to face the consequences of their actions”. Having a building fall down and (potentially) kill a character because they pulled the lever marked “Collapse building” is fine. Forcing a player to escape a swarm of deadly robots they unleashed by not reading the computer logs detailing why said doors were locked is fine. Melting a player because they walked into a random building isn’t. Similarly spawning a random zombie in an unopened bathroom stall makes an exciting moment that can make the player react to the game well. Making a player have to open every bathroom stall door or there will be a zombie behind it isn’t fun. It’s a fine line to walk, but it’s the type of thing that can make a difference between a 5-star fun game and a game that people drop from boredom/frustration and never play again.

[Iosyn]

Bathing does sound fun. It’s not essential, but it does sound like it could reduce the scent radius.

As long as you don’t use fragrant soap. Sniffer zombies, ahoy!
I wanna build a car that’s just a spiked bath on wheels now.

[detahramet]

Melting a player because they walked into a random building isn’t. Similarly spawning a random zombie in an unopened bathroom stall makes an exciting moment that can make the player react to the game well. Making a player have to open every bathroom stall door or there will be a zombie behind it isn’t fun. It’s a fine line to walk, but it’s the type of thing that can make a difference between a 5-star fun game and a game that people drop from boredom/frustration and never play again.

The difference here is that having a player melt because the walked into a random building and having them have to check every stall or die is not fun if it constantly happens and is repetitive. The difference is a randomly generated world and developer created world. In a developer created world, where they plan the design of the map very carefully, they no better than to do that. Players will likely have similar experiences, and if things aren’t planned out properly so it feels as dynamic as possible, then alot of players will drop the game, especially in a game with permadeath. Thats difference though, Cataclysm ISN’T game that has worlds created by the devs, Its a randomly generated world. If you get a bad world, you can easily create a new one, and explore a large swath of land in a short time before dying inevitably. That time of exploration is important, and it is also fun. The RNG creates a world where it is possible to find zombies in bathrooms, The RNG creates buildings that randomly melt players (though obviously this has to have a way to detect, if it ever were in the game), The RNG leaves clans of Jabberwocks in the forest next to your spawn point, The RNG places your spawn shelter in the middle of the fucking suburbs so that when you go near the window to check out whats outside the static NPC blows your brains out with a poorly aimed shot. If this was Dev created world, then this would all be inexcusable. It isnt. Its created randomly.

Also, back onto the topic of basicly bodily functions, given how mixed it seems the responce on this is, lets just get modder to create something for it and see if it works.

[Iosyn]

It’s randomly generated right now. There’s going to be an integrated world builder at some point, I think.

[detahramet]

It won’t get rid of the random though.

[Isidarth]

Unexpected locations for mobs makes sense and fits in with the game: you need to be careful to survive. At the same time, it’s not a chore if you are paying attention, so it retains the fun.

While the locations are randomly located, there are specified layouts. For example, that room with the terminal warning you about killer robots if you unlock the door? It has one or two designs that are rotated, but will always be in that format. It is merely the location of those two connected rooms that is random. This allows the environment to give you enough information to avoid the “seriously?!” kind of deaths that are just frustrating, rather than “lol the RNG screwed me over again” or “well I did something wrong.”
(I think I may have misinterpreted the tone of above posts, and I apologize. I put too much effort in to want to delete it. X) )

That said, I feel like adding bowel movements to the game is focusing the details too small. Survival depends on eating and drinking, so those are important. Worrying about having a place to take a poo? Maybe useful, so you don’t get ambushed with your pants down. Actually making the player manage that? It’s like telling them to count grains of sand because if they don’t take out all the green ones they’ll be severely handicapped. I’d rather people spent time on more environments to explore, mob types, tools, etc.

[kevin.granade]

[quote=“Sheb, post:16, topic:2784”]But I’m not sure adding urin and excrement adds much to the game.

Pretty much this. One of the basic rules of good open-world game development is “The Player should never be ‘forced’ to do something”. Forcing the player to stop whatever they are doing and go to the bathroom twice a day or else suffer extreme penalties does not in any way enhance gameplay for the average player. All it simply does is force the player to perform a repetitive, un-fun task or be punished. Positive rewards on doing something, however, are allowed. This is why bathing might be added in eventually as something you can do to receive rewards (morale bonus + scent reduction), but it will never be added in as a “bathe or suffer heavy morale penalties + scent increases”.

Note that “The Player should never be ‘forced’ to do something” (This is sometimes also called the “or else” rule, since it can always be worded as "The player needs to do this or else something bad will happen) should not be confused with “The Player doesn’t have to face the consequences of their actions”. Having a building fall down and (potentially) kill a character because they pulled the lever marked “Collapse building” is fine. Forcing a player to escape a swarm of deadly robots they unleashed by not reading the computer logs detailing why said doors were locked is fine. Melting a player because they walked into a random building isn’t. Similarly spawning a random zombie in an unopened bathroom stall makes an exciting moment that can make the player react to the game well. Making a player have to open every bathroom stall door or there will be a zombie behind it isn’t fun. It’s a fine line to walk, but it’s the type of thing that can make a difference between a 5-star fun game and a game that people drop from boredom/frustration and never play again.[/quote]

I’m in total agreement with all of this, I’d just like to add that another way to phrase this is how much influence the player has on the process. With food and water for example, the act of eating is trivial, but finding food can be a very deep problem, which is why it’s in. There’s just nothing interesting to add about waste elimination, go wherever, it doesn’t really have any impact on the game unless you warp things to make it so. Yes you can layer in all kind of complicated things about latrines and leaving traces of yourself around etc, but really none of that’s at all necessary, and the effects of it can be added without bothering the player about it.