On making fire

Game Talk The Drawing Board
1

Basically…

I suggest removing several elements of the current game, mostly related to what you can light on fire with a lighter or a box of matches, and replacing with the following system.

Making fire is not as simple as holding a lighter up to a solid chunk of wood and getting that fire to last for a decent amount of time is an art. Damp wood, greenstick, or a lack of kindling or tinder can all be major problems. So let’s crank out some fire recipes and tie actually lighting a fire to the Survival Skill. Also, add “Stoke Fire” which will add fuel to the fire, and “Tend Fire” which will maximize the time the fire stays alive.

Campfires and Bonfires should not be portable in game.

Good Campfire

Skill 1: Survival 5
Skill 2: Fabrication 1
Component 1: 3 Kindling
Component 2: 6 Heavy Stick
Component 3: 6 Tinder or 12 Poor Tinder

Does not need to be tended.
Chance of Fire with Tinder Bundle: Certain for Survival Skill 5; 90% for Survival Skill 4; 80% for Suvival 3; 75% for Survival 2; 70% Survival 1; 50% for Survival 0
Chance of Fire with regular Tinder: Certain for Survival Skill 6; 90% for Survival Skill 5; 80% for Suvival 4; 75% for Survival 3; 70% Survival 2; 50% for Survival 1; 25% for Survival 0
Chance of Fire for Poor Tinder: Certain for Survival Skill 6; 85% for Survival Skill 5; 76% for Suvival 4; 60% for Survival 3; 50% Survival 2; 33% for Survival 1; 10% for Survival 0

Regular Campfire
Skill 1: Survival 2
Skill 2: Fabrication 1
Component 1: 3 Kindling
Component 2: 3 Heavy Stick
Component 3: 6 Tinder or 12 Poor Tinder

Chance of Fire with Tinder Bundle: Certain for Survival Skill 7; 70% for Survival Skill 4; 55% for Suvival 3; 45% for Survival 2; 33% Survival 1; 20% for Survival 0
Chance of Fire with regular Tinder: Certain for Survival Skill 8; 70% for Survival Skill 5; 50% for Suvival 4; 45% for Survival 3; 33% Survival 2; 33% for Survival 1; 15% for Survival 0
Chance of Fire for Poor Tinder: Certain for Survival Skill 6; 85% for Survival Skill 5; 76% for Suvival 4; 60% for Survival 3; 50% Survival 2; 33% for Survival 1; 10% for Survival 0

Poor Campfire
Skill 1: Survival 1
Component 1: 6 Kindling
Component 3: 3 Heavy Stick

Chance of Fire with Tinder Bundle: Certain for Survival Skill 7; 60% for Survival Skill 4; 45% for Suvival 3; 40% for Survival 2; 33% Survival 1; 20% for Survival 0
Chance of Fire with regular Tinder: Certain for Survival Skill 8; 60% for Survival Skill 5; 45% for Suvival 4; 40% for Survival 3; 33% Survival 2; 33% for Survival 1; 15% for Survival 0
Chance of Fire for Poor Tinder: Certain for Survival Skill 6; 85% for Survival Skill 5; 76% for Suvival 4; 60% for Survival 3; 50% Survival 2; 33% for Survival 1; 10% for Survival 0

Improvised Campfire
Skill 1: Fabrication 1
Component 1: Gasoline
Component 2: 4 Heavy Sticks

This will always light but will not last very long.

Safely Misshapen Campfire
Skill 1: Survival 4
Skill 2: Fabrication 1
Component 1: Gasoline
Compoenet 2: 4 Firewood or 10 Heavy Sticks

This will always light with the perk of not exploding.

Misshapen Campfire
Component 1: Gasoline
Component 2: 6 Heavy Sticks

Guaranteed to light on fire or explode, fifty fifty, won’t know till you try! Does not require Tinder.

Dumb Bonfire

Component 1: 40 Heavy Sticks
Component 2: 4 Gasoline

Guaranteed to explode in spectacular fashion. Does not require Tinder.

Bonfire

Component 1: 10 Heavy Sticks
Component 2: 10 Kindling

Does not need to be tended.

Large Bonfire
Component 1: 20 Heavy Sticks
Component 2: Gasoline

Does not need to be Tended. Does not require Tinder. Guaranteed to light on fire.

Tinder

Want a lot of fire in a short amount of time but don’t want to go into town to search for those pesky fuels? You want tinder. Dry Fungus, dry moss, wood shavings, charred cloth, they all burn easily but quickly (2 turns). Required to start a Campfire and consumed on use. Only charcloth and wood shavings need to be crafted. The rest are found. Rags can be used as Tinder for the purpose of starting a Campfire. Books and Newspaper can be used as a Tinder Bundle for the purpose of starting a Campfire.

Chance of Fire: Certain for Survival Skill 1; 90% for Survival Skill 0
Chance of Fire for Poor Tinder: Certain for Survival Skill 3; 90% for Survival Skill 2; 80% for Survival Skill 1; 70% for Survival Skill 0

Charcloth

Skill 1: Survival 2
Component 1: Rag
Tool 1: Fire
Result: 3 Tinder

Wood Shavings
Skill 1: Survival 1
Component 1: Heavy Stick
Tool 1: Knife
Result: 10 Poor Tinder

Tinder Bundle

Woven or compressed tinder that lasts 3 turns and guaranteed to light the kindling of your campfire.

Skill 1: Survival 2
Component 1: 3 Tinder or 10 Plant Fibre

Kindling

Kindling is the middle man between logs and tinder. Easy enough to catch on fire against a decent flame but not so easy you can set it off with an ember.

Tool 1: Knife
Tool 2: Heavy Stick
Component 1: Heavy Stick
Result: 4 Kindling

Fire Piston

After a quick search for “Fire” and “Fire Piston” in the item browser and github I saw no Fire Piston

Fire Drills are easy to make but fricking annoying and right now they are the only option for non consumable fire starter. Fire Pistons are much easier to use but much more annoying to create and therefore much more satisfying to have. To hardcore survivalist using a lighter feels unsustainable and cheaty when you should be doing that with something you made yourself, it just is not satisfying to use something you didn’t make with your own hands. Fire pistons in game would be the hard to obtain middle ground between a fire drill and a lighter in terms of making fire.

The downside compared to a lighter is that while you can make fire with this you cannot cauterize your wounds with it, moreover you will need some tinder, even then it still isn’t as reliable as a lighter but by the time you are able to make one that won’t matter anyways.

Crafted Fire Piston

Skill 1: Survival 8
Skill 2: Fabrication 5
Component 1: Heavy Stick
Component 2: Sinew
Component 3: Wax or Tallow or Blubber
Tool 1: Knife
Tool 2: Drill

Manufactured Fire Piston
Skill 1: Fabrication 5
Component 1: Heavy Stick or Pipe
Tool 1: Knife
Tool 2: Drill
Tool 3:
Tool 4:

Ember Bundle

One of the worst aspects of fire is that goes away after a while… No longer! This item keeps a constant coal strapped to your pack which can be used to light a fire but packed so tightly that it won’t until your want it to. Plus, the constant low levels of smoke tends to keep those of a slightly smaller lung capacity away (mosquitos).

Skill 1: Survival 4
Component 1: 6 Thread or 6 Sinew or 6 Plant Fibre
Component 2: Tinder or Rag
Component 3: Kindling or 10 Tinder

Fire Patty

Burning animal dung. You lit excrement on fire, it refuses to stop burning, and you know that you can carry it to light other things on fire with. Congratulations.

Component 1: Dung
Tool 1: Fire

Fire Bundle

Making fire is a pain, which wouldn’t be so bad, but by the time you want a fire you are cold, wet, and exhausted. Well, you finally have the skills to make prepare a fire in such a way that you have no problem getting it to start, and you’ve made it portable! This baby of yours is guaranteed to light at a moment’s notice.

Skill 1: Survival 7
Compoent 1: Thread or Sinew or Plant Fibre
Component 2: Tinder
Component 3: Kindling

Steel Wool

One electric charge later you have fire, consumed on use.

Qulliq


Could probably use some work but that's the general idea.

EDIT: Burning Tinder should be used to light the fire, so you got to light the Tinder, then you have to light the Campfire.
2

Looks like a great addition to the Hardcore Survival mod. Mainline, seems a lot of tedious detail. Sorry.

That, and the skill levels I’m seeing are rather high–further, access to fire is one of the basic balance checks for professions. So making a basic function of DDA crafting/maintennance a tedious “did it light? no? OK, try it again, did it light?” approach won’t work.

3

i like it and would love to play it.

That said, i would suggest, letting people with lower survival to light fire with 100%, just like the higher skilled ones.
Difference: Lower surv. means more time spent making the fire and more lighter/drill/piston charges spent.

i also suggest looking here: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/9016
since there is a fire related PR that could well change how fire works…

4

A player starting out with this system won’t have to deal with or know all the information I have suggested. All they have to do is know how to make a basic campfire, which can be figured out from looking at the crafting menu, or to collect some rags and tshirts to light on fire. Then we just add to the Campfire description “needs tinder” which will lead the player to look again at the crafting menu. Not any more tedious than figuring out how to craft most things in this game. That said making a campfire while stranded in the wilderness can be a more tedious task than mashing a lighter up against a heavy stick would be, but that’s a good thing to add, at least to some degree! Collecting fire wood is part of the fun of camping and one the major things to think about in a survival situation, fits perfectly with a game like this.

A survival 0 campfire should be added to the suggested system, though, just a bunch of kindling and/or rags which would be almost certain to light for anyone. It won’t last very long (one and a half hours so it will need stoking about five times for an eight hour sleep) before it needs to be stoked and it won’t need any tending. Doing that should improve accessibility and help balance things out while maintaining the realism.

I guess I did make the minimum percentage somewhat low as well so I’ll bump down the level requirements on chance to light. I’ll also bump down the level on some of the other items, like the ember/fire bundle and the fire piston.

Increasing the amount of tinder somebody has to use could punish low level players more then a percentage does as long as the chances of getting the fire to work are bumped up. That said, I do want to reflect how sometimes one just has to go without a fire for a night, I would drink the frostbitten tears of innocent level 0 survival characters. Kidding, I want this to be a fun challenge for everyone, making the game inaccessible is no good.

List of Changes:

Bump down level requirement on all chances to light the fire.

Add Awful Campfire (Survival 0 Campfire)

Add durations, but still need to add what “tending” actually does in relation to this. (4 hours for Poor Campfire, 8 hours for Regular Campfire and Good Campfire)

Lower crafting skill requirements for Ember Bundle, Fire Bundle, Fire Piston, Good Campfire, and Safely Mishappen Campfire

Increase results of crafting tinder.

Fix component cost for Safely Mishappen Campfire

Add campfire states: Roaring, Crackling, Dying

5

While making things burn more realistically is great and all, this just seems like MASSIVE overkill. It, honestly, doesn’t take all that much in the way of skill to start a fire using random crap in real life. More importantly, this is just added tedium for… what exactly? Sci-fi realism?

I vote nay (for what its worth).

6

[quote=“Daidalon, post:5, topic:7368”]While making things burn more realistically is great and all, this just seems like MASSIVE overkill. It, honestly, doesn’t take all that much in the way of skill to start a fire using random crap in real life. More importantly, this is just added tedium for… what exactly? Sci-fi realism?

I vote nay (for what its worth).[/quote]

As I’d said, modpack territory. I’m opposing this for mainline.

7

I’m not opposed to the concepts per se, but it’s a rather high level of additional content for a relatively small amount of differentiation.

Point-by-point:
Kindling, and lots of variants thereof, sure.
More fire making tools, good stuff, though I’d prefer to limit it to one level of quality per. Having said that, once one is implemented, if you want a bunch of variants in a mod, that would be very easy to do.
Crafted campfires and bonfires, I’m moderately for this, but on the level of one or two campfire variants* and one bonfire variant in mainline. For variants I’m thinking different burn rates instead of different quality levels, so one might be good for long-term cooking or other crafting requiring fire, but another might put out more heat for keeping you warm. Also these would be in addition to the “burning pile of stuff on the ground” approach, but that’s great because it lets us separate how that kind of thing acts from how a constructed and tended campfire acts.
Speaking of tending campfires, refueling them should also be a thing you can do, probably just by dropping wood on them under the assumption that you know what you’re doing having made the thing in the first place.

*Again if there’s code to handle crafted campfires in the game, adding variants should be a simple matter of adding recipes and such in a json mod that people can turn on if they want a more detailed campfire construction experience.

8

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:7, topic:7368”]I’m not opposed to the concepts per se, but it’s a rather high level of additional content for a relatively small amount of differentiation.

Point-by-point:
Kindling, and lots of variants thereof, sure.
More fire making tools, good stuff, though I’d prefer to limit it to one level of quality per. Having said that, once one is implemented, if you want a bunch of variants in a mod, that would be very easy to do.
Crafted campfires and bonfires, I’m moderately for this, but on the level of one or two campfire variants* and one bonfire variant in mainline. For variants I’m thinking different burn rates instead of different quality levels, so one might be good for long-term cooking or other crafting requiring fire, but another might put out more heat for keeping you warm. Also these would be in addition to the “burning pile of stuff on the ground” approach, but that’s great because it lets us separate how that kind of thing acts from how a constructed and tended campfire acts.
Speaking of tending campfires, refueling them should also be a thing you can do, probably just by dropping wood on them under the assumption that you know what you’re doing having made the thing in the first place.

*Again if there’s code to handle crafted campfires in the game, adding variants should be a simple matter of adding recipes and such in a json mod that people can turn on if they want a more detailed campfire construction experience.[/quote]

I love this (especially as you laid out), but it immediately gives me implementation questions to ask.

Would this perhaps fall better under the construction instead of the crafting menu? [cue bonfire NPC bug with NPCs weilding flaming bonfires]b I know I’d think it use it there, everyone I know refers to building bonfires, not crafting them, so I guess that has me biased. And would kindling be an item attribute like cutting 1, digging 2, and all that? or would it be something you’d have to craft out of newspaper/flyers/moss/potted plants? The latter seems cluttery and annoying, but I don’t know how hard it is to implement the former.

9

Campfires make more sense as a construction to me.
Kindling would be either a flag or a quality, depending on if we need to differentiate different levels of kindling.