Clothing Rewrite

A suggestion at the moment, but if it is received well I might implement it myself. It might be too complicated, but I feel like in-game a lot of this would be resolved behind the scenes and could be safely ignored for those who don’t care about trying to minmax their clothing. Even then, I think it would feel like the result was /making sense/.

(First note: In the code, all of these valuables will be multiplied by 10, for those technically inclined, and I’m sure you’ll understand why)

All wearables have three values: Bulk, and Size, and Stretch. for the purposes of this discussion, we’ll treat Size 2 as the normal Size of, say, a t-shirt. While a child’s t-shirt would likely be size 0. Stretch is a range, default 0, with Size as the “minimum” value. Size can be modified through the tailoring skill - Bulk and Stretch cannot. Bulk may end up tied to volume or derived from it, but we’ll ignore that relationship for now, except to note that some items like backpacks and utility vests may have varying bulks.

Bulk indicates how much material the item takes up. A winter coat or a backpack would be bulky. A wifebeater would not be. A sweater would be somewhere in between.

Size is about how tightly the clothing fits. You suffer penalties for wearing clothes that are too small. Too small depends on your base size (2, unless modified with traits) and the bulk of already worn items.

When wearing clothing, smaller clothing (and then clothing that is less bulky) is automatically stacked at the lowest level.

Encumbrance is determined by the base encumbrance value of all worn items, plus the size of each item minus the bulk of the items below it, plus a fraction of the max size+bulk.

This may seem complicated at first glance, but I feel it will easily become intuitive if I walk you through a couple scenarios.

One: Character is wearing a wifebeater and a leather jacket.

The leather jacket has a base encumbrance of 1, size of 2, and bulk of 1, and the wifebeater has no base encumbrance, size of 2, and bulk of .1. We’ll say neither has any stretch.

For the arms, we’d have the 1 encumbrance from the jacket, plus a .3 encumbrance from the bulk and size of the clothing.

For the torso, we’d have the same, but since the effective size the jacket is being compared to is the bulk of the items below PLUS the players size, we get an additional .1 encumbrance on top - the price we pay for wearing a perfectly skin tight jacket, hah.

Finally, we calculate our largest of item size+bulk (the jacket), minus our size, for “1”. This value, divided by 10, is our general encumbrance modifier from wearing any clothing at all, and mainly penalizes us for things like really jam-packed backpacks or exceptionally loose clothing. Here, it’s another mere .1.

However, 1.4 or 1.5 encumbrance are both, effectively, “1” encumbrance. The wifebeater doesn’t really add anything.

Two: Now let’s add a nice, heavy sweater vest to the same character.
We’ll say the sweater has a base encumbrance of 0.3, a size of 1 (What is this, a kids shirt?), a stretch of 1 (at least it’s stretchy fabric), and a bulk of .7.

The vest is stretched up to size 2, putting it on par with our other items. Bulk means the resulting worn order would be wifebeater->sweater vest->leather jacket.

We’ll stick to the torso this time. The wifebeater adds no base encumbrance, and it’s bulk increases our effective size to 2.1. The Sweater vest has an effective size of 2, so we get a .1 encumbrance penalty on top of it’s base encumbrance. Current encumbrance: .4, still trivial. But now we hit the real issue - it also adds .7 to our bulk, bringing our effective size to 2.8. With our leather jacket dropped on top, we are no suffering a penalty of of .8 from the size difference. Add the 1 from the stiffness of the leather, and we’re up to 2.2 encumbrance. It’s still our largest, bulkiest item, so we can throw the meaningless .1 on at the end and raise it to 2.3, but effectively we’re still at 2 encumbrance.

So can we make this better?

Three: We make an adjustment to the leather vest to make it looser.
With tailoring skill, we can change our clothes a bit. By adding a bit of material, we can let our leather jacket out, and we’ll say we increase it to size 3.

Copying the first bit from last time:
The wifebeater adds no base encumbrance, and it’s bulk increases our effective size to 2.1. The Sweater vest has an effective size of 2, so we get a .1 encumbrance penalty on top of it’s base encumbrance. Current encumbrance: .4, still trivial. But now we hit the real issue - it also adds .7 to our bulk, bringing our effective size to 2.8.

However, with our new, looser leather jacket, we’re actually still in decent shape. We slip it on over the sweater vest and suffer no size penalty at all, just the 1 encumbrance penalty from the jacket, bringing us to 1.4. When we go to calculate the end result, though, the “bulk penalty”, we are comparing it to the NEW size(over player size)+bulk, of 2. This is still only a .2 encumbrance penalty, bringing us to 1.6, which isn’t really any worse than 1.4, and is a good deal better than 2.2.

Four: And what about a backpack?
Backpacks will all have high stretch values, so it’s unlikely you’ll run into a “too small” penalty, and it will end up being the item you wear on top. So that only leaves the bulk modifier at the end, beyond any base encumbrance the backpack provides. We’ll say this is a high quality backpack that provides a measly 0 base encumbrance when empty - it is barely noticeable. We also get the 10% size penalty, but it adjusts to ever so slightly larger than our our leather jacket (bringing us up to 4 size - 3 size jacket plus bulk 1), so it’s about .2, or .1 more than if we were just wearing the jacket. This puts us at 1.8. Getting a bit higher than desired, but not bad at all considering.

But filled with canned goods, it’s going to bulk up significantly. Every 1 point of bulk from the backpack adds another .1 encumbrance penalty. Let’s just make bulk equivalent to the backpacks volume at this point, and say our backpack has a volume of 40. If we expand that backpack out to max volume and bulk, we’ve got an additional .4 on top of our penalties.

Well, we seem to be back at 2.2 encumbrance. But you know, considering we’ve got a full backpack, some decent armor, and quite a bit of warmth, that’s really not too bad.

So what do you guys think? Is something like this an alright idea?

(As a final note, some items, like Chitin armor or Plate Mail or boots, would have the “RIGID” tag - this would mean they simply CANNOT be worn if you have they would have a size penalty. So there would be no stacking up on those rigid items.)

This sounds like a great idea to me.
The current system is really rigid and kinda unrealistic; wearing enough clothing to be even remotely warm currently turns you into a staggering target.
I wear a minimum of three layers on my torso, two on my legs, and two on my feet in real life every day and it doesn’t slow me in the slightest, yet CataRivet is noticeably impaired when she’s wearing an equivalent amount of clothing, to the point where it can become life threatening.

Also I’ve been idly wondering this for a while now, are Cataclysm people like most video game people in that they’re stitched into their underwear, or have I been going commando this whole time?

If I’m following the example correctly, it seems generally worthwhile. It’s probably worth making a table/equation model for the math once the actual numbers, etc are nailed down as I’m not sure I quite get it in prose form. (Thinking about the wiki here.)

Whilst you’re at it: I’d like to expand Mutations. One thing I was thinking about was interactions with clothing. In particular, and kinda related to Rivet’s question*, is it possible to add Tailoring options to create wing slits and/or tail flaps for the relevant clothing?

Example: Bat Wings are already bad for your balance, but having them cooped up under that tight Leather Jacket isn’t going to help. Not sure how a Long Tail will help balance if it’s kinked** getting out of your Army Pants. Figure -1 DX for each as a placeholder debuff. (Non-accommodated Wing Stubs & Stubby Tail would have a 1-5% chance per turn to complain at the player, in the name of player-information, but not apply a debuff.)

*Since Socks are a specific item last time I updated, I’d bet commando. Leg Tentacles, Bark, Spines, Quills, Feathers, Chitinous Armor/Plate, and possibly Insanely Strong would probably cause problems for human-fitted underwear, for that matter.

**Mind. Gutter. Out!

Sounds good. Anything that brings more sense to the clothing system is good news to me.

Just one thing. When you talk about items stored in the backpack are you assuming GalenEvil’s container system would need to be implemented for this to work or that this proposed system would include that? Because as of now storage is a value shared by all the gear carried or worn. How would you determine if something is in a backpack to calculate its encumbrance penalty?

Yes - this seems like nice addon. You’d be looking just not the item, but also fitting items. If nothing else is found then you’d settle for under/oversized things and compensate them somehow, or choose alternate not-so-good choice befause you find good size.

One thing - if you dont have tailoring - is that you could rip the clothes to make them bigger. They would take damage and shredded, not be as good in their purpose but their size would be bigger thus you’d remove the negative penalty from size.

Also reduce comfortable level & slight reduction in manual skills with too tight clothes - and too big clothes could add fumble factor.

Concern re tightness/fumble factor: Encumbrance already has debuffs involved, and though I’m reading this to reduce overall encumbrance levels, Torso encumbrance over 1 is still deadly in melee situations. (Unless you’ve around skill 8-9 or so, and even then, you could get unlucky.)

Additional problems with clothing size seem like a good candidate for Traits, whether starting or mutation-based. (“Inconvenient Size” to borrow the GURPS term.)

This way, they’re available for players who want to mess with them or at least have gotten far enough to mutate, but don’t complicate the game for new players.

What desirable functionality does this system provide that the current system does not? Can the desired functionality be achieved through a simpler system?

A few things, primarily:

It provides finder gradiation - it allows encumbrance penalties without making those penalties so harsh to quickly.

It’s more intuitive - Wearing a tshirt and a sweatshirt will no longer rob you of your combat ability. Things like wearing shoes under socks will make sense.

It allows more player control, through tailoring to get perfect sizes.

It makes for less required clothing management, since proper order stacking will likely happen automatically. To put it simple, it adds optional complexity. If players just work on their intuition, things will mostly make sense. But they can also work out the exact details to get every last scrap of mechanical benefit as well.

Or, at least, these were the things I set out to solve when I designed it - there might be a simpler system, and by the time it gets implemented I assumed it will have gone through at least one or two more revisions. If you have any suggestions for changes, though, I’m all ears.

If you want finer gradation, you can get that much more easily by just reducing the effects of each point of encumbrance, then increasing the amount of encumbrance incurred by deserving items. Problem solved, and you didn’t have to add a bunch of attributes to every wearable in the game.

If you don’t want a t-shirt & sweater to incur a penalty, you can get that by increasing the threshold at which you take encumbrance penalties for wearing more items on one bodypart, or just removing it entirely and applying a more narrowly-aimed penalty. I think the big issue with removing it would be storage items, but if there were no storage benefits for wearing lots of items that would logically cover each other, that would not be a problem. Setting a generous cap on items per bodypart would prevent wearing 20 t-shirts to get the effects of a winter coat with no penalties.

Fitting clothes is currently automatic and abstracted, and I think that’s desirable. I don’t think asking the player to assess some mechanics and then solve simple maths problems for the same benefits is a good idea. If you want to have tradeoffs between warmth vs. storage vs. protection vs. encumbrance, you could make more variations on fitted items that simply get bonuses to those attributes, and then you just pick whichever package looks good.

I’m not sure what you mean by order stacking. If you’re talking about wearing your shirt under your sweater, which is in turn under your coat, then I think the game should just sort of abstractly assume you’re smart enough to do that, and not consider the consequences of wearing things in the wrong order at all. As far as I know, it already does this.

This whole system also opens up the door to having variant types of clothing stores. As it stands, every store has everything, because that’s how it works. With this system, we could have just shoe stores, where you can prowl through them to find a well fitting pair of boots.

Aaaactually, the game assumes you put things on in the order you put them on, so if you put on your leather jacket before your tank top, you’re wearing your tank top over your leather jacket.

This is why so many utility vests get shredded, by the way; they are usually put on as soon as you find them, so they’re worn over any other protective gear, and I’m sure you can guess how that works out…

After rereading the thing twice thrice, I have gained a rudimentary grasp of the concept. I think.

All I can say is that so long as it makes the clothing mechanism make more sense, which it seems to do, then I’m all for it.

I have one issue I would like to raise though, but it’s only tangentially related to the topic: throughout my playthroughs, assuming I survive long enough, I usually wear about 7+ clothing items to accommodate my playstyle (Usually 2 Utility Belts, Army Pants, Army Helmet, Boots, and a Backpack/Rucksack at the very least.) Add to that various fanny packs, belt rigs, holsters, and a Kevlar Vest here and there and it adds up to a LOT of clothes.

My issue is not of encumbrance, but of item space: since clothes are considered part of the inventory, each is assigned a specific letter. Thus, the more clothing I wear, the less items I can bring along with me. This isn’t too much of a problem at times, but it gets annoying when I’m “Carrying too many items!” when I still have a lot of volume/weight left to spare.

[quote=“slydogg9692, post:12, topic:602”]After rereading the thing twice thrice, I have gained a rudimentary grasp of the concept. I think.

All I can say is that so long as it makes the clothing mechanism make more sense, which it seems to do, then I’m all for it.

I have one issue I would like to raise though, but it’s only tangentially related to the topic: throughout my playthroughs, assuming I survive long enough, I usually wear about 7+ clothing items to accommodate my playstyle (Usually 2 Utility Belts, Army Pants, Army Helmet, Boots, and a Backpack/Rucksack at the very least.) Add to that various fanny packs, belt rigs, holsters, and a Kevlar Vest here and there and it adds up to a LOT of clothes.

My issue is not of encumbrance, but of item space: since clothes are considered part of the inventory, each is assigned a specific letter. Thus, the more clothing I wear, the less items I can bring along with me. This isn’t too much of a problem at times, but it gets annoying when I’m “Carrying too many items!” when I still have a lot of volume/weight left to spare.[/quote]

This right here is why power armor is just one all-covering piece.

But yes, the item limit in the inventory is a problem, and one that is being worked to overcome.