Survivor Suit needs buff

Game Talk The Garage
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[quote=“iceball3, post:14, topic:12261”]
For comparison:
[/quote]

flailing of arms in panic

argh, are you sure those stats you copy paste here are actually current?

Edit: seems you are lucky, only the bones flags were missing. But damn… I edited the pages at least, and finally removed that dropchance value from the template.

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:18, topic:12261”]7/7 is fine, player gets that much by wearing a hoodie+underwear.

It’s the regular zombie that needs a buff here.[/quote]
Meh, I disagree, normal Z’s are fine. They can still be a danger in large groups, esp to early game chars, and later game they evolve anyway. Early game is already pretty tough, would be careful to make it not impossible to deal with (by giving the normal Z dodge for example).

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[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:18, topic:12261”]7/7 is fine, player gets that much by wearing a hoodie+underwear.

It’s the regular zombie that needs a buff here.[/quote]Well, aside from the fact that neither has full coverage…
The fact that said clothing gets torn apart after any meaningful amount of abuse.
That survivor zombies have an exceptional healthpool.
And they still can dodge like the dickens.

This gives them seriously impressive survivability compared to normal zombies.

The whole issue about 7/7 is that it leaves literally no room for the imagination to be shoving a screwdriver or other sharp or blunt object into any of the many gaps the zombie very clearly has in it’s pitiful armor loadout, and no room to actually disable said armor.

Perhaps another fix that should be considered in the long term is armor resilience, which determine’s a monster’s vulnerability to get it’s armor reduced by damage.

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[quote=“iceball3, post:22, topic:12261”][quote=“Coolthulhu, post:18, topic:12261”]7/7 is fine, player gets that much by wearing a hoodie+underwear.

It’s the regular zombie that needs a buff here.[/quote]Well, aside from the fact that neither has full coverage…
The fact that said clothing gets torn apart after any meaningful amount of abuse.
That survivor zombies have an exceptional healthpool.
And they still can dodge like the dickens.

This gives them seriously impressive survivability compared to normal zombies.

The whole issue about 7/7 is that it leaves literally no room for the imagination to be shoving a screwdriver or other sharp or blunt object into any of the many gaps the zombie very clearly has in it’s pitiful armor loadout, and no room to actually disable said armor.[/quote]
point of survior zombie is to be strong version of normal zombie you are to avoid or engage carefully in early period.survivor zombie is not that common aside from certain cellars.soldier zombie have even more armor .
http://www.wiki.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?title=Zombie_soldier

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[quote=“survivornaginata, post:23, topic:12261”][quote=“iceball3, post:22, topic:12261”][quote=“Coolthulhu, post:18, topic:12261”]7/7 is fine, player gets that much by wearing a hoodie+underwear.

It’s the regular zombie that needs a buff here.[/quote]Well, aside from the fact that neither has full coverage…
The fact that said clothing gets torn apart after any meaningful amount of abuse.
That survivor zombies have an exceptional healthpool.
And they still can dodge like the dickens.

This gives them seriously impressive survivability compared to normal zombies.

The whole issue about 7/7 is that it leaves literally no room for the imagination to be shoving a screwdriver or other sharp or blunt object into any of the many gaps the zombie very clearly has in it’s pitiful armor loadout, and no room to actually disable said armor.[/quote]
point of survior zombie is to be strong version of normal zombie you are to avoid or engage carefully in early period.survivor zombie is not that common aside from certain cellars.soldier zombie have even more armor .
http://www.wiki.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?title=Zombie_soldier[/quote]Yes, but what I’m saying is that for their strength, the survivor zombie fluff doesn’t make any sense. Or vice versa, which is why people feel cheesed out and disappointed when they’ve taken down the extremely Exactly why I suggestioned this:

[quote=“iceball3, post:14, topic:12261”]I think that the melee skill combined with the dodge skill AND the armor AND the health is mainly giving the impression that survivor zombies are extremely tough, which they are, especially considering low level characters.
-screenshots-
The problem that causes the perception of them being so incredibly tough is the fact that they are so much more drastically difficult to kill than normal zombies, but have no fluffed out reason for being so besides the assumption that “Survivor” means they’re outfitted with “Survivor” tier crafted gear.

7:7 armor (a drastic increase from 0:0), a 50% increase in max health, and being able to actually dodge unencumbered low-level attacks make actually engaging the survivor zombie a completely different experience than engaging normal zombies.
But when it comes right down to it, the “armor” (just clothing, really) that survivor zombies drop is about the same as any other zombie, negating the only flavored reason it would have it’s armor rating.

The only solutions I can think of:
-Refluff the survivor zombies to be a common sub-brute evolution, noted to have dense, heavy flesh upon an uncannily swift frame.
or
-Change the survivor zombies to come equipped with Survivor tier gear, nerf their dodge and speed a little in favor of slightly extra armor rating. Have them drop damaged incomplete sets and versions of survivor gear and other “heavy clothing” that a survivor would pad themself with in the event of apocalypse (paper arm guards, 2-by-shins, you know, the makeshift armor).
or
-Keep the survivor zombie fluff as is, but drop their armor rating and dodge rating significantly.[/quote]
Also, assuming that link is up to date, going by the stats, the survivor zombie is actually probably as tough or tougher than the zombie soldier against everything except maybe bullets and knives.

As you can see, survivor zombies are much better at dodging, more accurate at fighting, hit twice as hard, move faster, have somewhat close of an amount of armor, and have higher health than the Z-soldier.

I will restate, the reason why people feel cheesed from them is not because they are so strong, but because they’re arbitrarily strong, with no given fluff reason besides “it has armor”, which the loot drops do not seem to represent well at all.
"Still wearing the tattered remnants of improvised armor and weaponry, it is plain to see that this zombie was once a survivor like you. "

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I encounter more soldiers in game than survivors.and in fact as i am using often piercing or cutting weapon i cant hurt them at all so i have to use backup bashing weapon like nord while i dont have to do it with survivors.Soldier is basically imperivous to lower levl piercing or slashing weapon having double cutting resistance with incresed bashing although for only one point-they rely on armor more than survivors for less combat abilities.also not rare thing to see them in groups.

I will restate, the reason why people feel cheesed from them is not because they are so strong, but because they're arbitrarily strong, with no given fluff reason besides "it has armor", which the loot drops do not seem to represent well at a
ll. being survivor which managed to survive (which shoudl talk of them being diffrent from rest of pack) and having makeshift armor mentioned is not so bad fluff.make shift armor is not suppoosed to be high lvl armors like survior armor but makeshift like wool coats,peacoats,lether jackets they sometimes drop for example.they also drop machetes for example or other usefull things like lamps,flashlights,good food like mre more often than ordinary zombies in my experience.This may be increased in rate probably. it would be intersting as some could dig out their drop so we can see

I think they once dropped higher levl armor but this was nerfed as having survioor suits dropped early was seen as too much advantage.

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[quote=“iceball3, post:24, topic:12261”]As you can see, survivor zombies are much better at dodging, more accurate at fighting, hit twice as hard, move faster, have somewhat close of an amount of armor, and have higher health than the Z-soldier.

I will restate, the reason why people feel cheesed from them is not because they are so strong, but because they’re arbitrarily strong, with no given fluff reason besides “it has armor”, which the loot drops do not seem to represent well at all.
"Still wearing the tattered remnants of improvised armor and weaponry, it is plain to see that this zombie was once a survivor like you. "[/quote]

“Somewhat close” isn’t somewhat close to “60% more”.
Survivor zed armor is like what a cotton clothed person would have. Not even leather.

They can get more improvised armor, but they won’t gain back the survivor stuff. That was be bad for balance (loot pinatas that are easy to take down) and actually made less sense than them having tattered-leather tier protection (survivor-armored survivors wouldn’t just go down like that).
Though honestly, explicit armor like wooden and paper armor is bad. Best improvised armor is just thick clothing.

So out of the 3 suggestion, only the first one could make sense, but there is no need to describe them as huge brutes. Just athletic humans in improvised armor.

The only thing that is off is the damage.

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The issue is though that “peacoats and leather armor” doesn’t really count as makeshift armor. They’re just somewhat protective clothing, that’s it, and the amount they’re often wearing wouldn’t come close to having enough coverage to award them their sheer resistances.
If I saw some 2-by-shin-guards, bone armor, leather vambraces, metal reinforced leather gauntlets, motorcycle helmets, and the like, then it’ll make sense (though they’re still very dodgy…)
As it is, now, their gear is 99% of the time not noticeably different from a normal zombie, and at most should be giving them 2:2 resistances.

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:26, topic:12261”][quote=“iceball3, post:24, topic:12261”]As you can see, survivor zombies are much better at dodging, more accurate at fighting, hit twice as hard, move faster, have somewhat close of an amount of armor, and have higher health than the Z-soldier.

I will restate, the reason why people feel cheesed from them is not because they are so strong, but because they’re arbitrarily strong, with no given fluff reason besides “it has armor”, which the loot drops do not seem to represent well at all.
"Still wearing the tattered remnants of improvised armor and weaponry, it is plain to see that this zombie was once a survivor like you. "[/quote]
They can get more improvised armor, but they won’t gain back the survivor stuff. That was be bad for balance (loot pinatas that are easy to take down) and actually made less sense than them having tattered-leather tier protection (survivor-armored survivors wouldn’t just go down like that).
Though honestly, explicit armor like wooden and paper armor is bad. Best improvised armor is just thick clothing.

So out of the 3 suggestion, only the first one could make sense, but there is no need to describe them as huge brutes. Just athletic humans in improvised armor.[/quote]

  1. That’s actually the idea I had, though, I’m not sure why wooden and paper armor wouldn’t be favorable to stick on their loot lists, even if damaged? I will retract any sentiment of survivor tier gear being a necessity on survivors, but low-tier explicit armor seems to be a good idea since the armor stats on survivors are pretty explicit…
  2. On the “bruting”, I meant more in the direction of normal sized tough zombies, with a deliberate statement on them having thick skin. Something to justify them having 7:7 resistances and 120 health beyond “they’re wearing marginally tougher clothes” like normal zombies often do anyway.
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well i can agree with this.

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Survivor zombies not dropping “Survivor” gear = crap idea.

The logical solution if you really think they were loot pinatas, would be to make them tougher and less common. Besides which, their best gear didn’t have a very high rate of appearance. Nerfing them to be crappy normal zombies just doesn’t make sense.

So bring their loot back and make them uncommon with more power and HP. Tougher than a Soldier zombie would make sense. So that most pistols(9mm?) will not do much except for really good criticals. I have to completely avoid soldiers at the beginning for this very reason. If I had to avoid toe to toe or light arms with a Survivor that wouldn’t be a problem.

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Doesn’t solve the loot pinata part.

They’re not getting their survivor gear back without getting near hulk tier in strength (not necessarily physical, just the ability to oppose player). And then people would complain that they’re human-sized but strong like hulks.

Retheming them to avoid “survivor” in name is possible, though that would kill their flavor.
Flavor is low priority, but “I don’t like it” is even lower. And

Survivor zombies not dropping "Survivor" gear = crap idea. Nerfing them to be crappy normal zombies just doesn't make sense.
are just that - personal dislike with no objective arguments to support it.
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Doesn’t solve the loot pinata part.

They’re not getting their survivor gear back without getting near hulk tier in strength (not necessarily physical, just the ability to oppose player). And then people would complain that they’re human-sized but strong like hulks.

Retheming them to avoid “survivor” in name is possible, though that would kill their flavor.
Flavor is low priority, but “I don’t like it” is even lower. And

Survivor zombies not dropping "Survivor" gear = crap idea. Nerfing them to be crappy normal zombies just doesn't make sense.
are just that - personal dislike with no objective arguments to support it.[/quote]

Your argument doesn’t really work mate. We have Soldier zombies that drop great loot. The Survivors would be a tier above a Soldier and just have their best gear marked as rare and often damaged. Besides Filthy being attached, you would have to be nearly able to make it yourself n order get it with out any debuffs(ala requiring the skill to fix it. game already requires a high skill to fix such items).

The elephant in the room for some reason is the aversion to having these zed types. You don’t makem Hulk size. Just a tougher Soldier with more likely damaged goods that are uncommon+filthy.

They are hard to kill with melee + light fire arms with a huge debuff to their semi rare loot. Besides which just turning their “elite” loot back on and I still never use their gear as it is Filthy + rare as hell to get the useful parts.

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The survivors honestly dont do that much damage… :expressionless:

what is it 3d7 or thereabouts? That, their faster speed, their armor, and their dodge make them challenging to early game characters who have almost no business attacking them in melee.

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[quote=“pisskop, post:32, topic:12261”]The survivors honestly dont do that much damage… :expressionless:

what is it 3d7 or thereabouts? That, their faster speed, their armor, and their dodge make them challenging to early game characters who have almost no business attacking them in melee.[/quote]4d6 at 6 melee skill.
How strong they are isn’t the issue.
The issue is that the flavor of the zombie in description, appearance, naming, etc doesn’t adequately reflect it’s stats.

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One balance fuckup doesn’t mean we’ll be going around fucking up the rest of the balance. “But we already have something bad” is a horrible argument for “so we can fuck it up more”.

Plus, soldier zed drops aren’t anywhere near as game-breaking as an early drop of 100% coverage full-body suit with low encumbrance and enough armor values to stop damage from 90% of zeds.

Survivor zombies were dropping survivor gear before. The result was that gun basements were more useful for the dudes inside than the guns. Granted, this was while the survivor gear was instant-win tier, but it’s still significantly above regular “wilderness” drops.

Possible drops to include: leather armor, armored vests, leather trenchcoats, gambesons, weaker medieval weapons (maces), survivor-grade weaponry
Won’t happen: armor with “survivor” in name and 100% coverage

35

survivor zombies dropping more of survivor weapons like makeshift glives.macuitl,quarterstuff, wooden tonfa,homewrecker,steel/copper spear …would be most welcome.
also greater chance of usefull tools and things like oil/gasoline lamps,fire drills,electric firestartres,makeshift welder would also fit theme.

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[quote=“survivornaginata, post:35, topic:12261”]survivor zombies dropping more of survivor weapons like makeshift glives.macuitl,quarterstuff, wooden tonfa,homewrecker,steel/copper spear …would be most welcome.
also greater chance of usefull tools and things like oil/gasoline lamps,fire drills,electric firestartres,makeshift welder would also fit theme.[/quote]this i do agree with, but with the covet that theybe small eniugh to be reasonably cartied on person. no glaives or spears.

maybe adding survivor stashes or homes

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[quote=“pisskop, post:36, topic:12261”][quote=“survivornaginata, post:35, topic:12261”]survivor zombies dropping more of survivor weapons like makeshift glives.macuitl,quarterstuff, wooden tonfa,homewrecker,steel/copper spear …would be most welcome.
also greater chance of usefull tools and things like oil/gasoline lamps,fire drills,electric firestartres,makeshift welder would also fit theme.[/quote]this i do agree with, but with the covet that theybe small eniugh to be reasonably cartied on person. no glaives or spears.[/quote]
while i coud agree with this on point of realism we have fire axes,sledgehammers,alunimium kegs as drops… i personally dont care much for spears and makeshift glaive although i doubt that many people use makeshift glaive and copper spear so having them in loot would be chance to get asquainted with them in early game.

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After further investigation using a survivor suit is a bad idea at the momment, you are much better off using a tailoring kit to add armor to a light survivor suit, or better yet wearing two light survivor suits (when cold enough of course).

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One balance fuckup doesn’t mean we’ll be going around fucking up the rest of the balance. “But we already have something bad” is a horrible argument for “so we can fuck it up more”.

Plus, soldier zed drops aren’t anywhere near as game-breaking as an early drop of 100% coverage full-body suit with low encumbrance and enough armor values to stop damage from 90% of zeds.

Survivor zombies were dropping survivor gear before. The result was that gun basements were more useful for the dudes inside than the guns. Granted, this was while the survivor gear was instant-win tier, but it’s still significantly above regular “wilderness” drops.

Possible drops to include: leather armor, armored vests, leather trenchcoats, gambesons, weaker medieval weapons (maces), survivor-grade weaponry
Won’t happen: armor with “survivor” in name and 100% coverage[/quote]

Having killed well over 100 survivor zeds with ELITE loot turned back on. I have yet to see even 1 item you just described. So your pinata idea in pretty much my entire 43 day latest game is rather flawed from my perspective. I tend to find filthy items, usually broken beyond my early repair level. Plus having 100% coverage does not make for a reasonable option for a buff. I rather sprint with 30% than die with 100% coverage. I know it is all different styles of playing. But truly, as of 5243 experimental. The top loot from these zeds, REALLY just do not drop. Repeated play through with the top loot available doesn’t spawn them at the unbalancing status you seem to think. I mean I’m knocking them off left and right and I’ve only seen 3 rare items…of which I wouldn’t even pick up because being broken and filthy.

I’m not arguing just to be a dick. I play the game like 4-6 hours a session 4 days a week. I really do not see this balance you suggest.

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The gear I listed wasn’t supposed to be current drop tables, just potential ones if someone wants surv zeds to drop better stuff.