Steam Dark Days Ahead

[xrogaan]

No, it just means that the game will be available through steam. The launcher
and existing ways to obtain the game will continue to be valid. More over, it is
unclear to me how third party mods will supported on the steam release. Yet
again another hurdle :).

[Air]

@TheMurderUnicorn

That’s all I wondered, really. I’ve seen other open source games (notably Nethack) have someone come in, make a few changes, and sell it. Whether it’s permitted or not, I would have had an issue with that.

So you saying that it will be free eases almost all of the concerns I had. I’m interested to see how it all shakes out.

Thank You. You mean NetHack: Legacy?

@Bio

so does this mean that we no longer need the launcher?

Yes and no. Steam allows me to create branches. So, there may be an official version of “Steam” prepared by me and an experimental version with the launcher etc., the user can choose what version he will download.

Why don’t you want to use “Game Launcher”?

@Positronic

I do have a suggestion, you should try joining the official development server, as it’ll help being able to communicate clearly with you about this beyond email or discourse.

Thanks. I will try to join.

@xrogaan

No, it just means that the game will be available through steam. The launcher
and existing ways to obtain the game will continue to be valid. More over, it is
unclear to me how third party mods will supported on the steam release. Yet
again another hurdle :).

We will see, It depends on the license (mods).

It may not be a game launcher, but the Steam suer will be able to download the launcher version. I’d like to make an easy-to-use version, but if someone wants more, no problem. The Steam version is only optional, for those who want automatic updates, better looks, sounds etc. I will keep you informed. For now, I’m on step 1 of 3 (Steamworks):

Remember, zombies can appear at any time… If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Thanks.

[AssumeCroons]

I don’t do much with licenses, though I have an interest in free software.

Questions for anybody:

1. Is CDDA open source?
2. Is it licensed that way?
3. Are derivative works expected to be open source?
4. Why does CDDA include a license whose authors “recommend against using Creative Commons licenses for software”?

The license for CDDA includes Creative Commons 3.0. The CDDA license also includes:

# Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
# modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are
# met:

#     (1) Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
#     notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. 

#     (2) Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
#     notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
#     the documentation and/or other materials provided with the
#     distribution.

[Fris0uman]

See CC BY-SA is NOT suitable for codes · Issue #18095 · CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA · GitHub for the licence question
CC-BY-SA is inherited from OG cataclysm and changing it is not trivial

[AssumeCroons]

I’m a CDDA player, and wannabe contributor. The idea of the Steam version gives me mixed feelings. On the good side, it’s a good game and hopefully more people can play it. On the down side, Valve could be a bad influence. Not the players, mind you - though that community is broader and does include a fair amount of trouble. But Valve does support a variety of ways to sell and distribute games that are not necessarily in sync with open development. So, I’m worried that the change might drive me away, both as a player and as a wannabe contributor.

@Air

“I’ve never seen you around” - I’ve killed a lot of zombies…

Your forum profile here is relatively new. Have you contributed source code?

@Air

There is a lot of work to do with graphics, music and sounds, but the game will be 100% free… As long as it’s on my account. If current developers eg Kevin or someone else decide to create a Steamworks account partner I will transfer Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead to this account. What will happen then? The license allows you to sell the game. If this were to happen, I recommend: the game should still be free on Steam and have paid DLC (scenarios, soundtrack, tiles, etc.) - as a support for developers.

Are these “additional restrictions”? Would this therefore contradict the CDDA license, specifically the following two parts of CC3.0?

@Creative Commons 3.0

ShareAlike — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original.

@Creative Commons 3.0

No additional restrictions — You may not apply legal terms or technological measures that legally restrict others from doing anything the license permits.

Advertising as “free but with paid DLC” can feel quite shady, both for players and contributors. For players, it follows a manipulative pattern: the free portion is a baited hook. For contributors, does everybody who contributes code know that somebody else will make money off of their work (either via direct sale or by being used to incentivize purchase of paid DLC)?

[AssumeCroons]

@Fris0uman

See CC BY-SA is NOT suitable for codes · Issue #18095 · CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA · GitHub for the licence question
CC-BY-SA is inherited from OG cataclysm and changing it is not trivial

Thanks! That does give a lot of background on the license questions.

[TwinCrows]

I know that Steam offers a lot of data to the owners of such store pages. What are your plans for this data? Do you intend to publish it, sell it, or is that only going to be available to yourself? How can we as a community monitor how you use this data? https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/marketing/google_analytics

[Zhilkin]

I wonder who would be interested in spending money to know which countries CDDA players are coming from.

[Bio]

@Air

Why don’t you want to use “Game Launcher”?

It’s not that I don’t want to use the launcher, it’s that I can’t use the launcher because its broken since the server host is down. Without the host server I can’t check for updates and download mods and its just a paperweight

[Fris0uman]

Launcher got updated somewhat recently and works again, it just doesn’t have the changelog.

[kevin.granade]

I want to point out something about your concerns, which is that the steam release, as currently situated, is a shallow fork of the project. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the primary direction of the development project itself, which is releasing CDDA as a free and open source game on whatever platforms are feasible.

From my point of view, this is just one more release channel in addition to (in order of cannonicality):
Source code from GitHub.
Github Releases (Linux, Windows, Mac, Android).
CDDA Launcher (unofficial, just pulls from GH releases anyway)
Linux distribution specific builds (Fedorra, Debian, Arch, Gentoo, etc)

While we’re happy to integrate support for these release channels into the main project, none of them steer the project itself in any way.

[Theawesomeboophis]

I’m not opposed to this, but I have a few questions.
Will the launcher be included with steam release?
Will this version have the same level of mod support as current version?
What is the estimated release window ( if any) for the steam version?
As a current cataclysm player, what incentive is there to use the steam version over the launcher?

[Air]

@AssumeCroons

I’m a CDDA player, and wannabe contributor. The idea of the Steam version gives me mixed feelings. On the good side, it’s a good game and hopefully more people can play it. On the down side, Valve could be a bad influence. Not the players, mind you - though that community is broader and does include a fair amount of trouble. But Valve does support a variety of ways to sell and distribute games that are not necessarily in sync with open development. So, I’m worried that the change might drive me away, both as a player and as a wannabe contributor.

As Kevin wrote here, this is just another distortion channel. If you are concerned, you don’t run the Steam version, just download it from github. If Steam and its community were to do anything wrong, the game could be removed at any time from Steam.

@AssumeCroons

Your forum profile here is relatively new. Have you contributed source code?

Your forum profile here is relatively new. Have you contributed source code?
No, only on my local computer for fun.

@AssumeCroons

Are these “additional restrictions”? Would this therefore contradict the CDDA license, specifically the following two parts of CC3.0?

There will always be problems with licenses. Remember that projects like DDDA are created by amateurs or for fun, they often don’t read the license thoroughly. It is possible that MIT would be a better license for this project. The license allows you to sell the game, DLC are another story. Do You remember OpenIV tool and GTA + Take Two? It all depends on the creator/company.

@AssumeCroons

Advertising as “free but with paid DLC” can feel quite shady, both for players and contributors. For players, it follows a manipulative pattern: the free portion is a baited hook. For contributors, does everybody who contributes code know that somebody else will make money off of their work (either via direct sale or by being used to incentivize purchase of paid DLC)?

I don’t know. I’m not interested. DDDA will be free on Steam and my modification (graphics, music, sounds etc. and if players like the modification, I can make it available under the CC license).

[Air]

@TwinCrows

I know that Steam offers a lot of data to the owners of such store pages. What are your plans for this data? Do you intend to publish it, sell it, or is that only going to be available to yourself? How can we as a community monitor how you use this data? https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/marketing/google_analytics

Yes, you can add code from Google Analtycis, but only for the product page (website). This is not for the game.

Steam has its statistics:

Steam Charts

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam

@Zhilkin

I wonder who would be interested in spending money to know which countries CDDA players are coming from.

I can not agree. The date is the future. Perhaps in the future our world will be overrun by zombies and maybe someone will want to start a shop for the survivors…The data from this game can be very important.

[Air]

@Bio

It’s not that I don’t want to use the launcher, it’s that I can’t use the launcher because its broken since the server host is down. Without the host server I can’t check for updates and download mods and its just a paperweight

There will be a normal version like from github and Steam version. I will create different branches (everyone will be able to choose).

[Air]

@Theawesomeboophis

Will the launcher be included with steam release?
Will this version have the same level of mod support as current version?

Steam has branches, so you will be able to choose the same version you are currently using. In this case you will have have updates automatically. Everyone plays CDDA differently, so he must have a choice and if you don’t want to, you can continue to use the official / github site.

The Steam version is primarily about automatic updates and new graphics, sounds, music etc…

Today (I think) I will be launching a page on Steam for CDDA.

[Theawesomeboophis]

Sounds great, I am excited for this and I wish you good luck in your endeavors, I just had a few questions and this cleared some things up, thanks.

[AssumeCroons]

@Air

As Kevin wrote here, this is just another distortion channel. If you are concerned, you don’t run the Steam version, just download it from github. If Steam and its community were to do anything wrong, the game could be removed at any time from Steam.

Voicing my concern here led to some discussion. I learned from it. Kevin made the project’s position clear. I’m getting pretty clear about yours, too.

Many of the changes that you described aren’t just about Steam distribution. They actually they seem pretty cool. I’m guessing the changes are meant to make the game “fit in” better, since other Steam games set a particular standard, for CDDA to visually look better in comparison with other Steam games. If that’s why the other changes are there, it’s a fine reason. In that case, it’d represent a difference in priority with the main github. It’d be quicker to get things the way you want it on Steam, if you can choose what to focus on. That’d be a good reason to do a shallow fork.

That’s just a guess though. Am I onto something?

Are you going to run the Steam stuff open source on github or anything like that? Will the changes eventually get merged back into the main CDDA?

[Alwitus]

Awesome, I’m looking forward to this project of yours. Hope it goes well.

[Joshbr32]

I’m going to bump this because I would like to play this game if it’s on steam, but I cannot find it on the storepage. Was this ever finished? @Air