Stamina and running mod

[kevin.granade]

in a way that sort of matches the skill system

Yep, “sort of” is what we strive for
It makes exactly the same amount of sense for strength and dexterity to advance in the same way, it’s just not something that has been added, and not something we’ve messed with yet because when we add it we want it to work right.

Plus, making it a “trait” will require re-balancing of starting points, etc etc.

What re-balancing? It would default to 8, giving you a neutral-ish amount of endurance, and if you want it higher you put more points in it.

[Paquito]

What re-balancing? It would default to 8, giving you a neutral-ish amount of endurance, and if you want it higher you put more points in it.

Ah, I assumed the idea was you were going to get more default points.

I still prefer the hidden stat idea though, because traits don’t grow with experience, and stamina is definitely something that improves quickly with experience.

Consider the following: Someone who fights primarily with ranged weapons (throwing, archery, guns) and tends to win fights while kiting will not last nearly as long melee fighting as someone who fights primarily with melee weapons. I dunno how many people here have taken a boxing class IRL, but it’s pretty shocking just how fast your stamina drains when throwing hard punches. An untrained fighter trying to hurt someone is exhausted in 30 seconds or less.

[KA101]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:41, topic:6470”]What re-balancing? It would default to 8, giving you a neutral-ish amount of endurance, and if you want it higher you put more points in it.

Ah, I assumed the idea was you were going to get more default points.

I still prefer the hidden stat idea though, because traits don’t grow with experience, and stamina is definitely something that improves quickly with experience.

Consider the following: Someone who fights primarily with ranged weapons (throwing, archery, guns) and tends to win fights while kiting will not last nearly as long melee fighting as someone who fights primarily with melee weapons. I dunno how many people here have taken a boxing class IRL, but it’s pretty shocking just how fast your stamina drains when throwing hard punches. An untrained fighter trying to hurt someone is exhausted in 30 seconds or less.[/quote]

I’ve not taken a class, but I have dropped a few bucks into that motion-tracker boxing arcade game. I’ll agree that actually punching like that will be surprisingly tiring. Fencing class took some doing too (and those masks keep the heat in pretty well). TKD, I was young and not particularly good.

[Reaper]

um, I don’t get it

There are big discussion about balance…
If you want it - clone my branch and compile it for self.

[kevin.granade]

The gist of it I got was that Reaper wanted to make a simple change, and he got flooded with people telling him what to do, making it far more complicated than what he was willing to deal with.

We don’t need to have the ultimate perfect version of a change for it to be better than what we have now. I thought once the things Reaper noted needed to be done were completed, it would be a (big) step in the right direction.

[Robik]

Yes, even the original idea is cool and probably worth tweaking and merging.

My only problem is, that STR is best starting stat already (starting as if you want to survive first week), it will become mandatory.

Offtopic:

• there is trait that gives more carry weight, Strong Back, it costs 3 points and add 35%
• investing 3 point in STR gives flat 12kg carry weight bonus, which is slightly less than 35%, but is add 9 HP, add to melee dmg, etc.
• result: Strong Back is worthless unless you want to pick it with 14 STR char, but as more and more carry weight has diminishing return in itself (you really don’t need to carry that much), still worthless

[Murphy]

Not really. Whether it was 8 or 14, enough pain and bad affects will drop it down to 3 and that’s when Strong Back really shines.

[Zireael]

Kevin - that’s what I thought, too, I liked Reaper’s code and it was just a matter of making numbers work. The stealth thing was just an idea for a FAR future, mind you!

[Paquito]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:45, topic:6470”]The gist of it I got was that Reaper wanted to make a simple change, and he got flooded with people telling him what to do, making it far more complicated than what he was willing to deal with.

We don’t need to have the ultimate perfect version of a change for it to be better than what we have now. I thought once the things Reaper noted needed to be done were completed, it would be a (big) step in the right direction.[/quote]

Us backseat-chefs are spoiling the broth!

[Murphy]

It’s actually a very simple idea at its heart.

What do we need? A mode for running as fast as we can but can’t keep up indefinitely, and a mode for normal travel where we don’t have to stop occasionally to catch our breath, and a way to change between those modes. That’s all folks.

Oh we need a way to determine maximum stamina and a way for the player to train his stamina? Guess what, the game already has a mechanism for that, it’s called skills. There is no need to make both a new stat and a way to raise stats just so we can implement running!

Yes, separating strength and endurance makes sense but it’s outside the scope of this mod.
Yes, sneaking mode also makes sense but it can wait till running is done and then just use the framework.
Yes, weight affecting your running ability makes sense, but it can be done later, especially since there’s already a system in place that establishes your max weight and gives penalties for exceeding it, and that system will need to be considered and updated so we don’t end up confusing players with penalties when they aren’t over their declared carrying capacity.

[Rivet]

[quote=“Murphy, post:50, topic:6470”]It’s actually a very simple idea at its heart.

What do we need? A mode for running as fast as we can but can’t keep up indefinitely, and a mode for normal travel where we don’t have to stop occasionally to catch our breath, and a way to change between those modes. That’s all folks.

Oh we need a way to determine maximum stamina and a way for the player to train his stamina? Guess what, the game already has a mechanism for that, it’s called skills. There is no need to make both a new stat and a way to raise stats just so we can implement running!

Yes, separating strength and endurance makes sense but it’s outside the scope of this mod.
Yes, sneaking mode also makes sense but it can wait till running is done and then just use the framework.
Yes, weight affecting your running ability makes sense, but it can be done later, especially since there’s already a system in place that establishes your max weight and gives penalties for exceeding it, and that system will need to be considered and updated so we don’t end up confusing players with penalties when they aren’t over their declared carrying capacity.[/quote]

I’m totally okay with all of this.

[Reaper]

I’m totally okay with all of this.

Ok. I update top post.
All right?

[StopSignal]

[quote=“Murphy, post:50, topic:6470”]It’s actually a very simple idea at its heart.

What do we need? A mode for running as fast as we can but can’t keep up indefinitely, and a mode for normal travel where we don’t have to stop occasionally to catch our breath, and a way to change between those modes. That’s all folks.

Oh we need a way to determine maximum stamina and a way for the player to train his stamina? Guess what, the game already has a mechanism for that, it’s called skills. There is no need to make both a new stat and a way to raise stats just so we can implement running!

Yes, separating strength and endurance makes sense but it’s outside the scope of this mod.
Yes, sneaking mode also makes sense but it can wait till running is done and then just use the framework.
Yes, weight affecting your running ability makes sense, but it can be done later, especially since there’s already a system in place that establishes your max weight and gives penalties for exceeding it, and that system will need to be considered and updated so we don’t end up confusing players with penalties when they aren’t over their declared carrying capacity.[/quote]

I still think we need to have a jogging pace where we move at the same pace as the normal Cata, so the change is not so intrusive.
[me=StopSignal]came to complicate the simple[/me]

[Murphy]

The “normal” mode is jogging. But if it’s exactly the same speed as before, then this mod is going to make the game easier because you gain the ability to sprint and don’t lose anything to counterbalance it. It would make sense that jogging speed would be slightly lower than running speed of the current Cata.

[kevin.granade]

Yes, the fact that you can out-walk zombies is a BUG, so by default* you should have to expend some stamina to get away.

*There are of course exceptions, there are slow enemies, and maybe quick or similar should give you enough of an edge. Of course getting them hung up on obstacles should still work.

[Reaper]

I do test version with parameters of penalty and bonus move cost in options.

[Paquito]

[quote=“Murphy, post:50, topic:6470”]It’s actually a very simple idea at its heart.

What do we need? A mode for running as fast as we can but can’t keep up indefinitely, and a mode for normal travel where we don’t have to stop occasionally to catch our breath, and a way to change between those modes. That’s all folks.

Oh we need a way to determine maximum stamina and a way for the player to train his stamina? Guess what, the game already has a mechanism for that, it’s called skills. There is no need to make both a new stat and a way to raise stats just so we can implement running!

Yes, separating strength and endurance makes sense but it’s outside the scope of this mod.
Yes, sneaking mode also makes sense but it can wait till running is done and then just use the framework.
Yes, weight affecting your running ability makes sense, but it can be done later, especially since there’s already a system in place that establishes your max weight and gives penalties for exceeding it, and that system will need to be considered and updated so we don’t end up confusing players with penalties when they aren’t over their declared carrying capacity.[/quote]

I’d still want to see enemy speeds changes along side this change

[Hague]

I suppose you could just call the skill Athletics instead and it could apply to running, jumping, climbing, whatever. Higher Athletics skill reduces the Stamina cost of doing particular things while higher average physical stats increase your maximum capacity for stamina? We can just make abstract substats based on averaged scores between two stats themselves: Strength + Dexterity / 2 = Endurance (Resilience?). Dexterity + Perception / 2 = Reaction. Intelligence + Perception / 2 = Wits (Savvy sounds cool, too) Strength + Intelligence / 2 = Willpower. I would prefer the word “Dexterity” be replaced with Quickness, since that’s a better catch-all for what we want Dexterity to actually mean (also, I love Shadowrun)

Sorta forms a square:

STR---> WIL <---INT
 |               |
 v               v
END     SELF    WIT
 ^               ^
 |               |
DEX---> RCT <---PCN

[kevin.granade]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:25, topic:6470”]Just to be direct, it makes no sense for endurance to be a skill, it’s a set of physical traits, not something you learn to do
It would start being something you could advance just as soon as we did something similar for the rest of the stats.[/quote]

[Reaper]

Small upd:
Throwing and firing from bow reduce stamina.