Remove duct tape from screwdriver recipe

[Charlesilv4]

I was talking about it with some people on IRC, i also discussed it with Mugling, Blank99:

“Without duct tape it’s craftable within the first hour which does upset balance somehwat. Same reason hacksaw is a relatively rare drop” mugling

“So how does this actually improve the gameplay?” mugling

ETC.
(The git link https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/19428).

Now i want to hear what you guys think.

[pisskop]

Screwdriverss arent rare or hard to find.

Balance wise mug is right.

From a ‘real’ standpoint, the duct take is not only to cobble together some metal, but to provide grip so you can apply torsion. kind of required.

Knife spears are bullshit.

[Charlesilv4]

Screwdriverss arent rare or hard to find.

Balance wise mug is right.

So if they arent hard to find them how being able to make one without the need of duct tape is going to affect the balance ?.

From a 'real' standpoint, the duct take is not only to cobble together some metal, but to provide grip so you can apply torsion. kind of required.

You can make a grip by either bending the metal, cord grip the handle, smelt a plastic on it or by just wraping a rag.

Also soldering iron are way easier to find than a screwdriver

[DeclanFrost]

[quote=“Charlesilv4, post:3, topic:13013”]

Screwdriverss arent rare or hard to find.

Balance wise mug is right.

So if they arent hard to find them how being able to make one without the need of duct tape is going to affect the balance ?.

From a 'real' standpoint, the duct take is not only to cobble together some metal, but to provide grip so you can apply torsion. kind of required.

You can make a grip by either bending the metal, cord grip the handle, smelt a plastic on it or by just wraping a rag.

Also soldering iron are way easier to find than a screwdriver[/quote]
I agree with Charles on the first point. I somehow could hardly find screwdrivers back when I played seriously (just debug sandbox in now til next stable)
Also agree on the second one.

[pisskop]

why do you want ascrewdriver?

[IcedPee]

For me, a screwdriver is one of the only tools in the earlygame that doesn’t have a primitive variant that can be cobbled together with sticks, rocks, and curtain strings. Hammers, shovels, knives, pots, wood saws, backpacks, lockpicks… all of these things have a makeshift variant, but the screwdriver doesn’t, always requiring duct tape. Unless a screwdriver or a roll of duct tape spawns in the basement of the shelter, you pretty much have to hoof it into town to find one or the other. Once you start scrounging through houses and zombie corpses, screwdrivers are relatively common (and so are screwdriver sets, come to think of it).

I think the biggest “deal” with not being able to craft a screwdriver before leaving the immediate safety of the shelter is that it’s required to disassemble furniture, which is the only way to start training up your construction skill without an entry-level book. Keep in mind that you need Construction 1 to board up windows and doors. There’s nothing else I can think of in the early game that requires screwdriving quality (except hotwiring vehicles maybe).

As an aside, the Construction 1 requirement for boarding up a window is pants-on-head stupid. I can accept that to make a serviceable desk or chair you need some practice/basic understanding of furniture shape, weight distribution, etc, but you definitely don’t need that to nail some planks against a window.

[Charlesilv4]

As an aside, the Construction 1 requirement for boarding up a window is pants-on-head stupid. I can accept that to make a serviceable desk or chair you need some practice/basic understanding of furniture shape, weight distribution, etc, but you definitely don't need that to nail some planks against a window.

That is true, lol the survivor has no common sense. I would say that having the skill to barricade a window should affect more the effectivess.

I like to remind that just because you can find something doesnt exclude the need or option of making one.

[wad67]

I’d suggest simply modifying the recipe, to use [thread,small string, long string] or rags or duct tape.

In addition to that, there are a lot of things that work as an improvisational screwdriver.
I have often used the point of a pair of scissors, or the edge of a knife in situations where I don’t have a screwdriver.

[Lesseps]

[quote author=Charlesilv4 link=topic=13755.msg289794#msg289794 date=1480181777]

That is true, lol the survivor has no common sense. I would say that having the skill to barricade a window should affect more the effectivess.

Since it’s still a role playing game, why don’t you just accept the paradigm that ‘your character’ doesn’t have to know all ‘you’ know as a player. Skills in this concept should not act as the manufacturing requirement only. I would say that is more of a general ability of that given person to come up with idea of boarding a window And successfully completing said task. It measures general knowledge as well. Otherwise howcome chopping Z’s to pieces leads you to idea of making some survival stuff not directly related to that? Common sense can also be measured by skills. Makes sense. No lot’s here for me. Construction 1 to board a window? Sure,you can come up with that idea while disassembling wooden create into planks. Makes sense.

[pisskop]

Im of the opinion that if a player wants to make boarded windows as their struggle for survival begins they should take a point of construction. Its perhaps a whinsy bit gamey though thats what happens when you create a skill-based crafting system.

As for using a scissors for a screwdriver. Your missing the part where this is a game where ALL the uses of a screwdriver need to be covered by the quality rating. We would be adding a new, crappy level of crude screwdriving, not buffing the screwdriver or the player’s ability to magic themselves into not needing to expose themselves to danger to get supplies.

go play a mechanic if you want an easy screwdriver. Go take a utility cyborg instead of that BioOps combat monstrosity that makes early game a joke.

[Aabbcc]

[quote=“pisskop, post:10, topic:13013”]go play a mechanic if you want an easy screwdriver. Go take a utility cyborg instead of that BioOps combat monstrosity that makes early game a joke.[/quote]That’s bullshit talk.
If you take a bioOps monstrosity, then you dont spend your first day scrounging for what to craft, you go shoot some zeds, and get shit to make better stuff to craft, or a vehicle, or both. You’ll probably get a couple dozen screwdriver sets, welders, wrenches and the like in the process as an afterthought.

Arguing that we shouldn’t have an early screwdriver because that’d make the bionic sniper too powerful is ridiculous.

For the professions that don’t come with an easy killing or mobility solution, you know, those professions where the early game is pretty much “craft your way up to a knife spear and crowbar, go get food”? is the effect really going to be that big? you still, you know, need food, it’s not like you can eat two-by-fours, nor do you have a stockpile so you can go on a construction spree, and that screwdriver is not going to get you a better weapon than the knife spear, or help you get to it faster.

It’s not even going to help the early looting, sure, you can now disassemble, but smashing is just faster and if you can’t deal with many zeds, time is of the essence. If you can deal with many zeds, then killing them is just better loot and you’ll end up with 5 screwdrivers by the end of the battle.

Now, you could choose to not raid the town and just get food from the wilderness and then get on with your construction, but that’s, frankly, suboptimal to raiding, you can’t get a bunch of tools and components, you’re strapped for metal, you don’t have fuel, you don’t get books, etc, etc, etc. It’s more a theme/roleplay choice.

Letting such a character actually progress into making their own log cabin is not something I’d consider unbalanced. Or undesirable.

[pisskop]

Theres nothing stopping you from making a log cabin.

The game is one of choices. You chose not to take a profession that started with a tool you wanted, you chose to not put points into construction, you chose to not use your points for utility, instead putting them into so fargone profession or scenario.

the game is not unbalanced because your every whim isnt accounted for. This change, however small, would upset the balance of the game for the worse. You are free to make a mod to rectify what you feel is unfair, but until you can provide evidence that it is in fact unfair to not be able to reconstruct your starting furniture for extra resources instead of scavanging around zombies or going out into the woods nobody is going to lift a finger about it. Heavans forbid you not be able to craft something the moment you smash a fridge, hunh.

This multipool system of chargen has apparently not had the desired effect of getting people to invest in Quality of Life bonuses at game start.

[Aabbcc]

Pisskop, you’ve gotten into your head that this is somehow about whining regarding game difficulty. Please kindly read the original git request.

The original request is basically: duct tape requirement is stupid and nonsensical. Another argument brought forth is: Screwdrivers are an odd duck in that it’s a simple tool with no makeshift, accessible variant.

Solutions were proposed, from minimal to more involved implementation, from zero to slight balance impact.

[quote=“pisskop, post:12, topic:13013”]Theres nothing stopping you from making a log cabin.

The game is one of choices. You chose not to take a profession that started with a tool you wanted, you chose to not put points into construction, you chose to not use your points for utility, instead putting them into so fargone profession or scenario.[/quote]What if you don’t find those professions interesting from a fluff perspective? what if you want to start with a thematically-appropriate hunter in the woods instead of an out-of-place mechanic or cyborg in the woods? what if you want the wilderness start and gasp! don’t want the uber-op bionic monstruosity?

What if you don’t want to start with mechanics skill or a CBM that bypasses all tools and not just the basic ones? what if you’re not interested in a profession that at least until very recently, had no way of regaining power because battery CBM is (was?) broken? what if you want to experience the whole craft tree from zero to ten instead of skipping levels, like you can do with every other basic tool and every other basic crafting skill?

What if you don’t give a crap about any of that, but still find the screwdriver recipe to be dumb and it just irks you every time you see it?

[quote=“pisskop, post:12, topic:13013”]the game is not unbalanced because your every whim isnt accounted for. This change, however small, would upset the balance of the game for the worse.[/quote]For all your cries of “mah balance!” you’ve yet to provide a single thing that would say “screwdrivers break balance” that hasn’t been debunked.

Moreover, this request isn’t being supported by “make it balanced”, or fairness. it’s being done for “make it not stupid”. Because it’s a gamey requirement that not only serves no purpose, but could have been replaced by a non-gamey requirement if it somehow proved to be unbalanced.

You are free to make a mod to rectify what you feel is unfair, but until you can provide evidence that it is in fact unfair to not be able to reconstruct your starting furniture for extra resources instead of scavanging around zombies or going out into the woods nobody is going to lift a finger about it.

You’re the only person bringing the word ‘fair’ here.

Again, this is not about “ma game too hard! make it easy!”, this is “duct tape is stupid”.

[quote=“pisskop, post:12, topic:13013”]Heavans forbid you not be able to craft something the moment you smash a fridge, hunh.[/quote]If you’re raiding a place that has a fridge, you are already facing zombies and in a place that can spawn screwdrivers and screwdriver sets. If you didn’t stumble upon one there, you’ll find one in the next house over.

This multipool system of chargen has apparently not had the desired effect of getting people to invest in Quality of Life bonuses at game start.

Which has very little to do with screwdrivers.

[Alec_White]

[quote=“wad67, post:8, topic:13013”]I’d suggest simply modifying the recipe, to use [thread,small string, long string] or rags or duct tape.

In addition to that, there are a lot of things that work as an improvisational screwdriver.
I have often used the point of a pair of scissors, or the edge of a knife in situations where I don’t have a screwdriver.[/quote]

I agree with this. I even have used my house’s keys as screwdrivers successfully before. Guess this would need quality of screwdriver to make it realistic and less stupid.

Also I don’t understand why there’s people sperging so hard and irrationally against even the mere idea of changing the recipe, I’ll blame the Internet.

[pisskop]

Therein lies your problem.

You dont find them interesting. Because youd rather spend your points elsewhere.

You can have boarded windows from rip. You can have a screwdriver from get. But youve taken to demanding you have cake and eat cake at the same time.

youve taken to claiming that youve debunked whatever assertions Ive made, despite having made none at all. Youre simply bantering. and refusing to take good advice from one of the most active modders atm. Best believe I mod out things I have an issue with.

The reason we dont hand out scredrivers and hacksaws, why they dont spawn in every single garage and household (bercause ohhh, boi, are tools common as sin) is that they give the player an objective. You want to remove that objective.

I have before stated that in order to have a too_quality, a tool has to be fit for EVERY single circumstance in which that quality is expected to handle.

Your keys and that scissors dont fit screwdriving 1

[proxiehunter]

[quote=“pisskop, post:12, topic:13013”]Theres nothing stopping you from making a log cabin.

The game is one of choices. You chose not to take a profession that started with a tool you wanted, you chose to not put points into construction, you chose to not use your points for utility, instead putting them into so fargone profession or scenario.

the game is not unbalanced because your every whim isnt accounted for. This change, however small, would upset the balance of the game for the worse.[/quote]

How? What’s so incredibly imbalancing about a screwdriver that it requires the game make them harder to cobble together than they would be in real life? Does game balance immediately go flying out the window when I find a screwdriver set in the basement of my evac shelter or in the house I start in when I have another start? If not why would easier crafting of one be so harmful to balance?

This multipool system of chargen has apparently not had the desired effect of getting people to invest in Quality of Life bonuses at game start.

Since I play with stats through skills all the multipool system did is annoy me because it wants me to put specific point totals in other categories. Fine, I can always select single pool but any time I want to tweak a template I’ve created just slightly before starting a new game I have to go back and put it in single pool again because it defaults to the stupid pointless multipool system and complains I didn’t put enough points in stats or something.

[Charlesilv4]

Is not even that hard to make a screwdriver, just need a metal bar that is thin enough, hammer it, file it (wich can be done on a rock) and there you go, Iam talking from experience here as I once needed to remove tiny screws and didnt have a screwdriver.

Theres nothing stopping you from making a log cabin.

The game is one of choices. You chose not to take a profession that started with a tool you wanted, you chose to not put points into construction, you chose to not use your points for utility, instead putting them into so fargone profession or scenario.

the game is not unbalanced because your every whim isnt accounted for. This change, however small, would upset the balance of the game for the worse.

Yeah and iam choosing to make this recipe less bullshit, and the same could go for you, dont want to make a screwdriver thats fine just dont go telling people what they can and cant do with such moronic arguments.

Therein lies your problem.

You dont find them interesting. Because youd rather spend your points elsewhere.

I spend my points where i want, wich doesnt even have nothing to do with the screwdriver recipe.

youve taken to claiming that youve debunked whatever assertions Ive made, despite having made none at all. Youre simply bantering. and refusing to take good advice from one of the most active modders atm. Best believe I mod out things I have an issue with.

The reason we dont hand out scredrivers and hacksaws, why they dont spawn in every single garage and household (bercause ohhh, boi, are tools common as sin) is that they give the player an objective. You want to remove that objective.

Yeah you can be a active modder, but thats doesnt put much weight on your arguments.
Having the ability to make a screwdriver inst in any sort of way giving anybody a objective, those that dont want to make one will still scavenge the tools they need, wich in turn gives the person that dont want to scavenge more control over what they can do.

And please do enlighten us about how having a screwdriver will “unbalace” the game…you are saying that like we are asking to make screwdriver sets more easy to find.

[proxiehunter]

[quote=“Charlesilv4, post:17, topic:13013”]Is not even that hard to make a screwdriver, just need a metal bar that is thin enough, hammer it, file it (wich can be done on a rock) and there you go, Iam talking from experience here as I once needed to remove tiny screws and didnt have a screwdriver.

Theres nothing stopping you from making a log cabin.

The game is one of choices. You chose not to take a profession that started with a tool you wanted, you chose to not put points into construction, you chose to not use your points for utility, instead putting them into so fargone profession or scenario.

the game is not unbalanced because your every whim isnt accounted for. This change, however small, would upset the balance of the game for the worse.

Yeah and iam choosing to make this recipe less bullshit, and the same could go for you, dont want to make a screwdriver thats fine just dont go telling people what they can and cant do with such moronic arguments.

Therein lies your problem.

You dont find them interesting. Because youd rather spend your points elsewhere.

I spend my points where i want, wich doesnt even have nothing to do with the screwdriver recipe.

youve taken to claiming that youve debunked whatever assertions Ive made, despite having made none at all. Youre simply bantering. and refusing to take good advice from one of the most active modders atm. Best believe I mod out things I have an issue with.

The reason we dont hand out scredrivers and hacksaws, why they dont spawn in every single garage and household (bercause ohhh, boi, are tools common as sin) is that they give the player an objective. You want to remove that objective.

Yeah you can be a active modder, but thats doesnt put much weight on your arguments.
Having the ability to make a screwdriver inst in any sort of way giving anybody a objective, those that dont want to make one will still scavenge the tools they need, wich in turn gives the person that dont want to scavenge more control over what they can do.

And please do enlighten us about how having a screwdriver will “unbalace” the game…you are saying that like we are asking to make screwdriver sets more easy to find.[/quote]

Honestly the easiest thing to do might be to make an “easy screwdriver” mod. If I knew how to make a mod recipe override a recipe from the core game I’d whip it up myself, that’s pretty much the only part I’m unsure of.

[Charlesilv4]

If I wasnt knee deep in work I would look it up. What I realy wanted was to hear more people opinions on the question, wich from what i can see is a welcome change to the recipe.

[IcedPee]

On a gameplay note:
In nearly every other recipe that requires duct tape for use as a grip, strings, thread, or rags are allowed as acceptable substitutes instead. I’m not sure what it is about the screwdriver that specifically necessitates duct tape, but it’s a pretty jarring example of internal inconsistency in early-game crafting recipes. If for no other reason, the recipe should probably be changed just because of this.