Option for "Hardcore" Injuries

[Necrosia]

I like DDA’s large selection of drugs, conditions, and means of treating adverse physical effects, but I don’t like how things like bleeding and deep bites are so easy to take care of. Bleeding to me doesn’t penalize you enough, and deep bite bounds only need a use or two of disinfectant and then suddenly are gone. I think it’d be great to have an optional mod for hardcore injury systems. Bleeding that has to be treated, stitching up deep wounds and letting them heal, getting fractures and not just 0 health limbs, losing limbs completely, and other effects of that nature to give combat and damage another challenging aspect for players that can keep players on their toes even late in the game when injuries are mundane. A late game player who gets a deep bite may have tons of disinfectant lying around, but they suddenly have an “oh shit” moment and realize they have no stitches and no skill to use them even if they did.

[Gnorse]

yes please , the complex injury system is one of the things i love most about dwarf fortress

[SpadeDraco]

We definitely shouldn’t get Dwarf Fortress levels of complex, but I’m totally sold on the idea of having more injury types with a bigger variety of treatments. Cuts requiring sutures\tourniquets, aspirin doing bad things to you if you’re bleeding, maybe even some (keyword) rare multi stage procedures for removing shrapnel\ digging out bullets, basic field surgery stuff. The First Aid skill is a bit lacking at the moment and could use some enrichment.

[Soyweiser]

I have not played DF adventure mode in ages, so I don;t know if the fort mode damage system is in adv mode as well. (As somebody mentioned on github, fast travel used to heal all injuries).

But you do realize this is a bit stupid right? A DF like system in a future world like cata means you go through a stack of characters as fast as a prostitute goes through a stack of condoms. When your dworfs get seriously wounded they are probably infected or lose limbs, or are useless forever. And without help most of them would die. The only reason that it is fun is because you have a lot of dworfs. And you care about the fort, the simulation, the !!fun!!. A DF like system would just kill your characters pretty quickly.

‘The Turret hits you with his smg burst. It rips through your clothing, your leg bone is smashed, your leg tendons are cut, your spleen is ruptured, your intestines are bleeding, shots bounce of your skull, you are stunned. You are bleeding.’

While DF is a great game, it just would not work in CDDA to have the same system. Now if you would implement multiplayer, or good npcs, then it could work. But if your new system depends on something that is very hard to implement. You should reconsider.

[Necrosia]

I never said it had to mirror DF, but isn’t the point of DDA to be challenging?

[Soyweiser]

I never said it had to mirror DF, but isn’t the point of DDA to be challenging?

Not according to the design document: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5559.0

I have no problem with challenge, but making stuff unplayable, unfun, or way to realistic (in real life a z apocalypse would not be something fun), so just challenge for challenge sake is pretty bad game design. It works for some games of course.

And sure the hp system could be redesigned. But I have no idea how to do it in a ‘fun’ way. Esp not considering the rest of the systems in place, and the setting.

[Valpo]

Making stuff unplayable is bad ofc whats your point?

The df system isn t unfun or to realistic to me.
You can not desinfect a wound in df which is why its realy bad there. But with modern medicine you can do much more.

[Soyweiser]

[quote=“Valpo, post:7, topic:12174”]Making stuff unplayable is bad ofc whats your point?

The df system isn t unfun or to realistic to me.
You can not desinfect a wound in df which is why its realy bad there. But with modern medicine you can do much more.[/quote]

My points are a) don’t recreate the squad based health system like fortressmode has in cdda b) I have no idea who the current adventure mode does the damage system. How do they fix the ‘your arm is off’ problem?

Ow and C) which I didn’t mention before. Generally time investment is a lot higher in characters in CDDA than adventure mode DF. So introducing stuff that makes the game a lot more deadly makes the game less fun (as now your characters you played a lot are more likely to die, so you have to scavenge/create medical supplies more, and take them with you everywhere, etc).

[Valpo]

Whats “the your arm is off” problem? When you loose an arm its gone in df.
fortress mode and adventuremode dmg model are exactly the same as far as i know.

I may be wierd but i ll say this:

When i first played this game . When i died in the first few days. Or a bit later .
Those where the most fun hours i had with this game.

Adn you should always take some medical suplies with you if you do have them.

[Coolthulhu]

The medical system could use a partial “hardcorizing”, but I’d rather have it be incremental than revolutionary.
For example, currently all statuses are either removed or not. That is, applying a rag to a bleeding wound has 50% chance to remove the bleeding effect.
Instead, I’d see it as a reduction of the effect. So applying disinfectant would lower bite time (removing it if it gets to 0), applying a bandage would weaken bleeding and first aid would weaken infection.

[Necrosia]

[quote=“Necrosia, post:5, topic:12174”]I never said it had to mirror DF, but isn’t the point of DDA to be challenging?

Not according to the design document: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5559.0

I have no problem with challenge, but making stuff unplayable, unfun, or way to realistic (in real life a z apocalypse would not be something fun), so just challenge for challenge sake is pretty bad game design. It works for some games of course.

And sure the hp system could be redesigned. But I have no idea how to do it in a ‘fun’ way. Esp not considering the rest of the systems in place, and the setting.[/quote]

I see your point, but this is why I specified it as optional. I’m not suggesting hardcore injuries and treatment be the default, but having the option for them would be completely fine. That’s the point of the Rebalance mods we currently have. There’s the base game with its own standard settings, and options and mods around it to make it either harder or easier.

[Belteshazzar]

I wouldnt want Dwarf Fortress’s level of detail. However, as someone recovering from surgery I gotta say that the addition of a simple ‘deep wound’ type requiring stitches, some level of sanitation and longer term pain management (to simulate some penetrating gunshot wounds, long gashes, being stabbed) might be in line?

I know I’ve gotten a Mad Max or Fist Full of Dollars vibe when a character ends up going long term in a limb splint so there are some interesting considerations from some types of medical needs. A deep wound could easily slow you down for a good week and may put you at risk of a painkiller addiction if you try to power through it.

Granted, most attacks arn’t likely to put at risk from this sort of injury (zed fists and jaws are usually unsuitable for tickling your insides as much as ripping you limb from limb, or pounding you to pulp.)

[WIndburns]

I enjoy playing hardcore and pulling off a save, I’m up for the option of hardcore combat.

No rest for bullets.

[Grandpuh_Ty]

“Snake, press the Start button and go into the Survival Viewer.”

[Slax]

“The bullet pierces your liver! That can’t be good…”

[iceball3]

Soyweiser does have a point. To clarify what he’s saying:
-DF’s medical system works in DF because it’s viable within it’s own gameplay context. As it currently is, the only game mode which sees as much time-investment in a single “run” is fortress mode, and the reason why it is is because your individual dwarves are replaceable, functionally. And if someone goes down in the battlefield or otherwise gets hurt, it’s part of standard gameplay to actually have a medical bay at the ready to recieve them, even if they aren’t quite the same afterwards. Your fortress can functionally recover from someone getting hurt or killed.
-Adventure mode, on the other hand, is a much quicker game mode. Most of the time, retired adventurers in dwarf fortress have a lot less time under their belt, if they hadn’t died, and adventure mode in DF isn’t even a constant bare-knuckled struggle to survive like cataclysm is. In essence: DF adventurers are expendable, because the time you’ve spent on them is not faced with as many hardships, and is usually much shorter.

Also, I’d like to mention that “hardcorizing” the medical system into even the ballpark of dwarf fortress styled is going to be such a gigantic wrench in game balance and code overhauling that I’m willing to gamble that “adding an option”, short of just making it a separate game entirely, is not viable. Coding issues aside, there is also the issue of making sure that every single monster in the game is well balanced for both game-modes. It’d be like maintaining two different games at once in a lot of aspects.

[Valpo]

It should be in the main game. Not just an option.

[PaultheNerd]

I currently feel that the game has very little actual choice when it comes to engaging in combat, especially in the earlier stages of the game. If you’re unlucky enough to bump into a strong monster it’s probably going to just kill you. Running away often isn’t an option as the stronger monsters tend to be just as fast as you, or you lose most of your speed after getting hit and can’t get away. It’s generally not fun to run into a brute early, and while you could argue that’s ‘part of the game’, it doesn’t make it much fun. It’d be cool if you could target specific body parts when attacking. It’d be cool to be able to desperately swing your makeshift crowbar at the brute’s knees in an attempt to down it and slow it down - so you can run away and live to fight another day.

I’d also like to see some more fun symptoms when you are damaged - since at the moment aside from a reduction in speed/damage you can’t tell how healthy you are without looking at the health bars. If your head is damaged you should have blurred vision and maybe even hallucinations when it’s health is REALLY low. Accuracy should decrease and maybe the odd mention of your head hurting. If your chest is damaged you should cough occasionally - maybe even cough up blood if extremely damaged? I’m fairly sure that arm arm damage not only reduces the damage you deal in melee but also makes it harder to turn wheels on cars, or I’ve noticed it when my arms are damaged. Maybe strength should decrease and heavy weapons can’t be wielded? Leg damage should slow you down but imo activating ‘run’ should remove this penalty unless your legs are REALLY badly damaged, as there’s nothing more annoying than dying because you took a bit of leg damage that stopped you from running away.

Wounds could maybe be a seperate thing, with each wound being either open, bandaged or healing. Not bandaging wounds could increase pain and cause further health loss via blood, while bandaging wounds could halt further pain increase and health loss, but still keep the current penalty for a day or so until they ‘heal’ properly. It seems strange that I can get my character down to the final red bar in all body parts and then be pretty much back to yellow/green condition in a single nights sleep. Maybe the bandages become blood soaked and you can wash them to reuse them if you wish?

I’m all for adding more little things, as I find the fun in this game is from all the little things.

[Coolthulhu]

I currently feel that the game has very little actual choice when it comes to engaging in combat, especially in the earlier stages of the game. If you’re unlucky enough to bump into a strong monster it’s probably going to just kill you. Running away often isn’t an option as the stronger monsters tend to be just as fast as you, or you lose most of your speed after getting hit and can’t get away. It’s generally not fun to run into a brute early, and while you could argue that’s ‘part of the game’, it doesn’t make it much fun. It’d be cool if you could target specific body parts when attacking. It’d be cool to be able to desperately swing your makeshift crowbar at the brute’s knees in an attempt to down it and slow it down - so you can run away and live to fight another day.

I agree that early combat is a bit limited, but running away is really, really good.
Did you actually run or just tried to walk away?

[iceball3]

[quote=“PaultheNerd, post:18, topic:12174”]I currently feel that the game has very little actual choice when it comes to engaging in combat, especially in the earlier stages of the game. If you’re unlucky enough to bump into a strong monster it’s probably going to just kill you. Running away often isn’t an option as the stronger monsters tend to be just as fast as you, or you lose most of your speed after getting hit and can’t get away. It’s generally not fun to run into a brute early, and while you could argue that’s ‘part of the game’, it doesn’t make it much fun. It’d be cool if you could target specific body parts when attacking. It’d be cool to be able to desperately swing your makeshift crowbar at the brute’s knees in an attempt to down it and slow it down - so you can run away and live to fight another day.

I agree that early combat is a bit limited, but running away is really, really good.
Did you actually run or just tried to walk away?[/quote]Yeah, by the sound of it, Paul seems to not know what the sprinting system in the game is. Assuming you’re using the newest experimentals (not sure how long ago it was added in), you press the " key to enter sprinting mode, which consumes stamina but flat out doubles your running speed.