Mugling is unfit to be a developer

[Random_dragon]

Archived as screenshots because I genuinely do not trust Mugling not to delete my posts there.

This is from a PR by another contributor (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/19247) who was porting fixes from my repo of Arcana mod to the mainline. It was closed by Mugling citing the following claim, which was subsequently proven wrong:

I confirmed that no, his stated reason for closing this is incorrect. The only other reason he could want to close this is wanting Arcana mod to stay broken in the base game, which is outright mismanagement. There are a LOT of things he’s fucked up over the past few months, and his attitude towards development makes it clear he prefers that others do the work instead of him, even when “the work” is basic error-checking and preventive measures. Then when the dev team is understaffed and up to their eyeballs in bugs, he doesn’t grasp that it’s mostly a self-made problem.

The vehicle fuckups recently? Those were primarily consequences of his PRs.

[John_Candlebury]

Regardless of who is right. This is neither the place nor the appropriate way to deal with this sort of issues.

[Random_dragon]

I’m voicing it in this way because I’m done with trying to be discreet or polite about it. Mugling is another of those people where I’ve zig-zagged between polite and rude because every time I go with being polite, he says or does something that makes me lose patience with him.

I’ve made intermittent attempts at discussing various problems with Mugling in the past. if he responds at all, it’s never in a polite or competently-thought-out manner. He gives less in the way of courtesy in discussion that I do, and that’s fucking saying something.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

What evidence do you have for those assertions?

[Random_dragon]

What evidence do you have for those assertions?

Gee, let’s see. Aside from the fact that I tested the thing he said was broken? As I already just outright said?

Or regarding development philosophy, there’s other pull requests that were poorly-tested: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/19275 (vehicle mechanics and fuel bugs recently are largely due to this), https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/18836 (casing code not updated for brass catcher and RELOAD_EJECT), https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/18735 (moded tools no longer working in recipes)…

[pisskop]

Regardless of who is right. This is neither the place nor the appropriate way to deal with this sort of issues.

I tend to agree. You will not get the support you seek like this.

[AdonaiJr]

I don’t know why you do this, Random.

I genuinely think you may have some kind of misperception. You see, you hoped to get the same feedback of other people about how you’re feeling, but it goes the opposite.

It is, indeed, not the appropriate way to show your concerns. I mean, everybody sees how hard-working mugglin is, dedicating many hours to improve the game in general, documenting issues, etc. Mistakes are going to happen, “political” issues too. None of these are powerful motive enough to try to ban him from dev. I hope you see that the problem is in how to show the problem and what you’re proposing, not the problem per se, whatever it is.

[Random_dragon]

Honestly, it’s more due to having tried to bring up related problems before. Not just with Mugling specifically, but with overall development issues. The polite method does not and has not worked, nor has attempting to discuss matters with the relevant people in private.

If neither work, what’s left? The only option left are to basically just ignore the matter entirely and let things continue the way they’re going, or be more vocal about it.

Correction. I’ve tried to just leave the community and ignore the way things have been headed. And what drew me back into the community? More problems cropping up, especially concerning my old mods.

For example, see the part where I got involved in the community again: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/18177 There were bugs that had been extant for 3 or 4 months, and I had most of them figured out within an hour, despite having not touched the code since february.

I’ve tried discussing my concerns with other in private, both politely and impolitely. And I’ve tried pointing out problems publicly, both politely and impolitely. I should just wash my hands of this and stop caring about the project, because things have been going downhill and nothing I say has ever helped.

[ApatheticExcuse]

RD, dude, you know I love ya, but you gotta leave this alone. If he’s actually a fuckup and wrecks the game, and other people let him do so (or, as seems to sometimes happen, try to stop him only to be told they aren’t worth much), then… well really, who cares? There’s other forks and it’s not like anyone else is being prevented from making their own fork, even if he ends up running this particular show and it crashes and burns.

And as much as it sucks, as your mods are, as always, plenty of fun, maybe you should just let them die if they aren’t appreciated

I should just wash my hands of this and stop caring about the project

YOu really should. I get why you’re frustrated, but this sort of thing makes other people who don’t know you as well think you’re an asshole, not a decent dude who got kicked off the project by an asshole.

[Neonwarrior]

Ayo, hol’ up. Why’s this in the gameplay discussion board? I feel like one of those people on those Japanese reality prank TV shows who go through a doorway into somewhere completely unexpected. Like that one time they constructed an office meeting around a porta-potty and the poor soul inside exits right into the middle of a meeting.

If y’all got issues with the head honchos, isn’t there a better way to bring them up than the place where you go to talk about gameplay tips? Though you did get my attention, which is what you wanted, so there’s that.

[DeclanFrost]

Let me hear you say ayo…
Ayo

[Kadian]

[quote=“Neonwarrior, post:10, topic:13011”]Ayo, hol’ up. Why’s this in the gameplay discussion board? I feel like one of those people on those Japanese reality prank TV shows who go through a doorway into somewhere completely unexpected. Like that one time they constructed an office meeting around a porta-potty and the poor soul inside exits right into the middle of a meeting.

If y’all got issues with the head honchos, isn’t there a better way to bring them up than the place where you go to talk about gameplay tips? Though you did get my attention, which is what you wanted, so there’s that.[/quote]

Read the full title of this Board: ‘The Bunker - Gameplay, Tactics, and General Discussion’ - this thread here would fall under the last one.

As far as Mugling is concerned…I’m not often on GitHub. I report a bug every once in a while, but that’s it. I really don’t keep an eye out on who makes what change and who breaks what. I would assume that a lot of us people are…like this, at least the ones who aren’t actively modding the game.

What I would request: Can we have a second opinion? Preferably from people who are very active on GitHub, or even Contributors themself. Someone else from there would probably realized it too if Mugling was that bad.

On another note: RD’s Description of mugling feels…familiar. Didn’t Kevin describe RD in a similar fashion? Doing lots of mistakes, being lazy, being rude and so on? If there is Truth behind RD’s words…well, logic would dictate that Kevin should take action against Mugling too.

[deoxy]

[quote=“ApatheticExcuse, post:9, topic:13011”]RD, dude, you know I love ya, but you gotta leave this alone.
–snip–

I should just wash my hands of this and stop caring about the project

YOu really should. I get why you’re frustrated, but this sort of thing makes other people who don’t know you as well think you’re an asshole, not a decent dude who got kicked off the project by an asshole.[/quote]

This. RD, I have supported you a lot, but you just aren’t in a place in the community where this sort of thing will do any good, even if you are 100% correct.

I had to learn some lessons like this the hard way, because I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut on stuff I feel strongly about, but really, you need to take some time off from caring about this. Like 6 months, minimum, and probably a year plus before you make a complaint like this one.

Yes, it sucks, and no, it probably isn’t fair, but really, fair is weather condition (or a place to buy livestock), not a good description for real life.

[Profugo_Barbatus]

Gonna have to agree with the general crowd here that this doesn’t seem to be the place for this. while this may be the general discussion board for the game, its not the general discussion board for muglings actions on github. That seems to be a problem and concern for there, not here.

As for whats going on, Muglings response may have been a bit too curt. Instead of knowing explicitly why it was closed, assumptions are being made and conclusions are being leaped too. Let the man speak his defense or reasoning before inciting a witch hunt.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

[quote=“deoxy, post:13, topic:13011”][quote=“ApatheticExcuse, post:9, topic:13011”]RD, dude, you know I love ya, but you gotta leave this alone.
–snip–

I should just wash my hands of this and stop caring about the project

YOu really should. I get why you’re frustrated, but this sort of thing makes other people who don’t know you as well think you’re an asshole, not a decent dude who got kicked off the project by an asshole.[/quote]

This. RD, I have supported you a lot, but you just aren’t in a place in the community where this sort of thing will do any good, even if you are 100% correct.

I had to learn some lessons like this the hard way, because I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut on stuff I feel strongly about, but really, you need to take some time off from caring about this. Like 6 months, minimum, and probably a year plus before you make a complaint like this one.

Yes, it sucks, and no, it probably isn’t fair, but really, fair is weather condition (or a place to buy livestock), not a good description for real life.[/quote]
Define this.

[deoxy]

[quote=“BorkBorkGoesTheCode, post:15, topic:13011”][quote=“deoxy, post:13, topic:13011”][quote=“ApatheticExcuse, post:9, topic:13011”]RD, dude, you know I love ya, but you gotta leave this alone.
–snip–

I should just wash my hands of this and stop caring about the project

YOu really should. I get why you’re frustrated, but this sort of thing makes other people who don’t know you as well think you’re an asshole, not a decent dude who got kicked off the project by an asshole.[/quote]

This. RD, I have supported you a lot, but you just aren’t in a place in the community where this sort of thing will do any good, even if you are 100% correct.

I had to learn some lessons like this the hard way, because I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut on stuff I feel strongly about, but really, you need to take some time off from caring about this. Like 6 months, minimum, and probably a year plus before you make a complaint like this one.

Yes, it sucks, and no, it probably isn’t fair, but really, fair is weather condition (or a place to buy livestock), not a good description for real life.[/quote]
Define this.[/quote]

There’s a history between RD and the other devs that led him to be removed from the team, voluntarily or not (and I think it was also at least somewhat voluntarily). That’s about the best summary I know how to give, as it is all gleaned from secondary sources.

Everything I have seen about it suggests that it was messy, that no one really acquitted themselves all that well, and that it was generally unfortunate.

It also led to RD having voiced opinions on this board several different times about the devs, leading to even his defenders (and would probably put myself at least partially in that camp, as I do like the stuff he has produced) to tell him to drop it.

At this point, even if he started out 100% in the right, he’s alienated enough people that I think any posts like this just make more people think poorly of him, even if he means well and really has only the good of the game in mind.

Does that cover it?

[hobophobic]

Regardless of anything, a thread like this shouldn’t be on the front page of a public forum. It just makes the whole project and everyone involved look bad, especially to people new here.

[Mike64]

I think the reason why he put it on “The Bunker” is because more people would see it. The post is more of a statement then an actual topic.

That’s just my two cents.

[Random_dragon]

Partly because I was in an especially sour mood at the moment, and partly because, well…there is no good place for this. I have objections to the way Mugling has acted over the past month or so, and I’m not good at voicing them. But even if that objection is valid, it’s not like we have a “post about current development practices” section of the forum.

[Neonwarrior]

Read the full title of this Board: ‘The Bunker - Gameplay, Tactics, and General Discussion’ - this thread here would fall under the last one.

Ok, but I still question the existence of the thread when it’s about an issue between a few developers and collaborators while normies such as myself cannot contribute. What good does pointing fingers do? Is this thread meant to garner popular support even though it really does not belong?

Honestly there should be another board created for ban requests or administrative complaints. That way the right people will see it without disrupting larger boards. I promise I’d go look at it every now and then to get my fix of internet drama for the day.