Martial arts derail from LEF

[Dlightfull]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:905, topic:5582”]Rivet just merged my melee combat rebalance.
Expect way less crits on strong characters and big nerf to high dexterity. Torso encumbrance is now way less crippling, especially on early characters, because it is now only percentage based (ie. 20 encumbrance lowers your hit rolls by 20%). Before, it was both percentage and flat and this flat rate killed early accuracy.

oldlaptop’s alcohol stove is in. It’s smaller and lighter than hotplate, but more expensive to use. Also, you can now dilute pure ethanol into vodka.[/quote]

By the way, about melee. It seems to me that the slow flow of water (or whatever it is called) of niten ichy-ryu is unrealistic. It’s too slow, in a real swordfight, the opponent would slice you ten times. All of my problems with zombies come from this technique, when i do it, the hulk/brute has time to send me flying. I say make it faster, or even get rid of it :).

[Coolthulhu]

By the way, about melee. It seems to me that the slow flow of water (or whatever it is called) of niten ichy-ryu is unrealistic. It’s too slow, in a real swordfight, the opponent would slice you ten times. All of my problems with zombies come from this technique, when i do it, the hulk/brute has time to send me flying. I say make it faster, or even get rid of it :).

This technique was supposed to be a downsite to using niten. If it is to be removed, niten will need a different nerf.
That said, niten may be underpowered now with the nerf to crit chance, so flowing may need a moderate buff to be less crippling.

[Dlightfull]

[quote=“Dlightfull, post:1, topic:10167”]By the way, about melee. It seems to me that the slow flow of water (or whatever it is called) of niten ichy-ryu is unrealistic. It’s too slow, in a real swordfight, the opponent would slice you ten times. All of my problems with zombies come from this technique, when i do it, the hulk/brute has time to send me flying. I say make it faster, or even get rid of it :).

This technique was supposed to be a downsite to using niten. If it is to be removed, niten will need a different nerf.
That said, niten may be underpowered now with the nerf to crit chance, so flowing may need a moderate buff to be less crippling.[/quote]

Other styles don’t really have a nerf, afaik, except the difficulty of finding the books (if it’s even possible at all). It already uses (a lot of) focus so why having a downside anyway?

About the focus, driving uses way too much. 15 ingame minutes of driving consumed more than 50 focus!!! I understand that driving is tiring, but not that much.

[Coolthulhu]

Other styles don’t really have a nerf, afaik, except the difficulty of finding the books (if it’s even possible at all). It already uses (a lot of) focus so why having a downside anyway?

Most styles are crap. Niten has guaranteed stun on crit, a bonus to damage and dodge from perception that’s really big early on (16 total damage and 4 dodge at just 8 per), quick attack+stun+extra damage on counter after dodge.

If it didn’t have flowing water, it would be clearly better than ninjutsu. That said, ninjutsu got a big nerf with the crits.
It can’t really be compared to unarmed arts, which also got hit by the nerfs, because it uses weapons. Both accessible weapons (cudgel) with which it maintains good damage, and endgame weapons (katana), with which it wrecks everything.

So if someone decides to rebalance niten, it should also involve nerfs, not just making flowing water less flowing.

[Dlightfull]

[quote=“Dlightfull, post:3, topic:10167”]Other styles don’t really have a nerf, afaik, except the difficulty of finding the books (if it’s even possible at all). It already uses (a lot of) focus so why having a downside anyway?

Most styles are crap. Niten has guaranteed stun on crit, a bonus to damage and dodge from perception that’s really big early on (16 total damage and 4 dodge at just 8 per), quick attack+stun+extra damage on counter after dodge.

If it didn’t have flowing water, it would be clearly better than ninjutsu. That said, ninjutsu got a big nerf with the crits.
It can’t really be compared to unarmed arts, which also got hit by the nerfs, because it uses weapons. Both accessible weapons (cudgel) with which it maintains good damage, and endgame weapons (katana), with which it wrecks everything.

So if someone decides to rebalance niten, it should also involve nerfs, not just making flowing water less flowing.[/quote]

but why nerf it? It’s just a really good martial arts, let it be that good. What downsides does krav maga have?

The low speed of flowing water is not really dangerous, it’s more annoying. By the time i’m buff enough to engage hulks and shoggots in melee, i can survive a couple of hits from them. It’s just convenient to be able to kill them hulks fast and with style.

[Coolthulhu]

but why nerf it? It’s just a really good martial arts, let it be that good. What downsides does krav maga have?

Good game design: balancing. Having styles that no one uses due to how bad they are and styles everyone wants because they’re clearly the best is a sign of failed quality control. Keeping one style from being too good is less work than rebalancing the whole game around that one style.

Krav maga doesn’t need as many downsides as niten because it has less strengths. If krav maga granted tons of extra damage and dodge and could be used with the strongest melee weapons in the game, it would also need a downside.

[Random_dragon]

Despite this I still tend to find Krav Maga the most practical of the unarmed styles. Though these crit changes might’ve just screwed it over, I’ll need to test it. ;_;

[Dlightfull]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:6, topic:10167”]Having styles that no one uses due to how bad they are and styles everyone wants because they’re clearly the best is a sign of failed quality control. Keeping one style from being too good is less work than rebalancing the whole game around that one style.

Krav maga doesn’t need as many downsides as niten because it has less strengths. If krav maga granted tons of extra damage and dodge and could be used with the strongest melee weapons in the game, it would also need a downside.[/quote]

But as it is, it’s the same lol. There are lots of styles no one uses. I have fencing that i don’t really use, since i have niten. When i’m unarmed, i use either karate or taekwondo. I’d use krav maga or muay thai, but i don’t have them. The others (aikido, boxing, brawling etc.) are all worse, imho.

[Coolthulhu]

I have fencing that i don’t really use, since i have niten.

If niten is still good enough to use instead of most other styles, then it certainly doesn’t need a buff.

I’d use krav maga or muay thai, but i don’t have them. The others (aikido, boxing, brawling etc.) are all worse, imho.

Krav maga is good, but I’m not sure if I’d pick it over niten. It has rapid strike and downing strike (just 1 turn), stun on crit and break grab and a 20% boost to cut/pierce damage, a miniscule bonus to damage from strength and arm/leg blocks.
Compare to niten’s big passive boost to damage, extra blocks (won’t help against hulks, but…), big perception-based bonus to dodge (this one will), flowing water (a negative, but still boosts damage), downing on hit, stun on crit and rapid strike + stun after dodge.

Against hulks, I’d rather use niten, or maybe get a first strike with brawling (for downing) and then switch to niten.

Muay thai might be better, though. It has a 1 turn stun on crit, 1 turn stun on hit and full damage rapid strike with 1 turn stun on hit. Also arm/leg blocks and strength scaling, but those are minor compared to that full damage rapid strike with stun on regular hit. Seriously, full damage rapid strike with stun on regular hit - looks like an oversight to me.

As for the stat scaling: krav maga’s is insignificant (0.15 of strength - at 40 strength, it’s just 6 damage), muay’s is mediocre (0.5, but flat -5 to that, so you need 10 str to break even and need hydraulic muscles for it to really matter), while niten’s is actually good (1.1 bash+1.1 cut/pierce per point of perception, cutting works with cudgel too). 1 point of perception with niten is almost 5 times as good as 1 point of strength for muay.

But yes, aikido, karate, judo, capoeira, zui quan and animal based ones are underwhelming. Brawling is actually quite good, especially considering that it’s free, due to its defensive capabilities (downing and counter).

[Dlightfull]

Well, i didn’t say niten is bad and needs a buff, i said it’s unrealistic to have such a slow move in a swordfight and it’s annoying when a hulk gets a free hit on you. It’s still the best martial arts out there, at least from what i have tried.

I don’t like brawling and taekwondo because they have this knockback move, which i am not sure how to react to, move towards the stunned opponent (do i have enough movement points to avoid a free hit?) or wait for him to come back at me (does that hulk have enough movement points to get a free hit?). They’re awesome when i get surrounded by less powerful enemies, but 1 on 1 it’s annoying for me.

I mostly use martial arts as defence, so bonus to damage does not really matter. I’d better hit the monster several more times while being completely safe, than killing it faster, but being in danger of retaliation.

[kevin.granade]

Well, i didn’t say niten is bad and needs a buff, i said it’s unrealistic to have such a slow move in a swordfight and it’s annoying when a hulk gets a free hit on you. It’s still the best martial arts out there, at least from what i have tried.

You suggested changing niten in a way that would make it much better, that is suggesting a buff to the style. Whether your reason is to buff the style or to avoid “annoyance” or for realism is irrelevant.
Unless you or someone else proposes a meaningful nerf to the style to take the place of flowing water, there will be no change. Simply removing or speeding up flowing water is not an option, because then niten would simply be the ultimate style, which we do not want, at least without serious requirements to get it.

[Dlightfull]

[quote=“Dlightfull, post:10, topic:10167”]Well, i didn’t say niten is bad and needs a buff, i said it’s unrealistic to have such a slow move in a swordfight and it’s annoying when a hulk gets a free hit on you. It’s still the best martial arts out there, at least from what i have tried.

You suggested changing niten in a way that would make it much better, that is suggesting a buff to the style. Whether your reason is to buff the style or to avoid “annoyance” or for realism is irrelevant.
Unless you or someone else proposes a meaningful nerf to the style to take the place of flowing water, there will be no change. Simply removing or speeding up flowing water is not an option, because then niten would simply be the ultimate style, which we do not want, at least without serious requirements to get it.[/quote]

I get it.

What if the skill requirements for the most powerful moves become higher? Like 6-7 melee (which is really hard to get now, i think i killed hundreds of zombies in melee and i’m still at 5). This way the style remains realistic and not annoying, becoming the single most powerful, but with steep skill requirements, basically something for endgame, meaning you’d still need to use other styles before you become good enough.

[Coolthulhu]

What if the skill requirements for the most powerful moves become higher? Like 6-7 melee (which is really hard to get now, i think i killed hundreds of zombies in melee and i’m still at 5). This way the style remains realistic and not annoying, becoming the single most powerful, but with steep skill requirements, basically something for endgame, meaning you’d still need to use other styles before you become good enough.

Nope, that’s not the proper way to balance things. Pushing things back to balance them gets rid of choice - you’d get a clear progression on styles and cookie-cutter characters.

[Dlightfull]

Nope, that’s not the proper way to balance things. Pushing things back to balance them gets rid of choice - you’d get a clear progression on styles and cookie-cutter characters.

I see… I’m afraid i have no other ideas then.

And since i installed that uncanny dodging CBM, i don’t really care about hulks and brutes anymore, tbh :D. Even if they do get a free hit at me, i dodge it 99,9% of the time.

[kevin.granade]

Meeting a skill threshold isn’t what I was thinking of when I said serious requirements, I’m thinking more like a long chain of difficult missions for some hermit martial arts master or something. Something you’d put serious time into achieving.
Even then I very much doubt what I would consider an ultimate style is what you’re thinking of, it probably wouldn’t be any stronger compared to other styles than niten is right now.

[Dlightfull]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:15, topic:10167”]Meeting a skill threshold isn’t what I was thinking of when I said serious requirements, I’m thinking more like a long chain of difficult missions for some hermit martial arts master or something. Something you’d put serious time into achieving.
Even then I very much doubt what I would consider an ultimate style is what you’re thinking of, it probably wouldn’t be any stronger compared to other styles than niten is right now.[/quote]

that sounds like fun. What if there would be a series of quests that allow you to improve your niten? Meaning that you still get niten as it is right now, from the book, but then, after doing the quests, it improves, speeding up your flowing water to the speed of a normal hit and adding some other smaller bonuses to the other moves of the style, or some new moves/ability to stun/anything else that sounds cool?

This could be added to the/some other martial arts as well.