Latest experimental features: tangent and new feature discussion

Before, only pimped out endgame sniper rifles wielded by endgame snipers could reliably hit anything at range above 15. Now it can be done before the entire balance of the game breaks up and before the game is in the “pure sandbox” mode. It is much more important to allow trained shooters to snipe than to allow great shooters to snipe far.
Hard cap (of 30) is temporary. There will always be a hard cap of 60 because of reality bubble, though.

Would it be possible to do something so that gun mods affect bullet recoil/dispersion?

“Currently” (in my outdated version) you can mod the crap out of a rifle to be perfectly accurate and have zero recoil… and as soon as you put bullets in it, it has insane recoil and the bullets can miss the target again.

This doesn’t make sense. If you are using weapon enhancements that physically stop the weapon from recoilling, that should be able to counteract the recoil generated by the bullets.

If you put a bipod and recoil stock etc onto a super accurate sniper rifle, you should NOT find that it becomes crap as soon as you load the .300 winmag rounds into it.

That’s currently my problem with my sniper rifles. Half the weapon mods I can put on them are pointless because I only need the other half to improve the stats of the rifle.

The bullets then ruin everything I just achieved.

Not exactly enforced now and I’ve gone off topic on this thread before too I think but yeah, this. Not trying to sound mean, just so it remains as on topic as possible you know?

[quote=“DG123, post:42, topic:12750”]Would it be possible to do something so that gun mods affect bullet recoil/dispersion?

“Currently” (in my outdated version) you can mod the crap out of a rifle to be perfectly accurate and have zero recoil… and as soon as you put bullets in it, it has insane recoil and the bullets can miss the target again.

This doesn’t make sense. If you are using weapon enhancements that physically stop the weapon from recoilling, that should be able to counteract the recoil generated by the bullets.

If you put a bipod and recoil stock etc onto a super accurate sniper rifle, you should NOT find that it becomes crap as soon as you load the .300 winmag rounds into it.

That’s currently my problem with my sniper rifles. Half the weapon mods I can put on them are pointless because I only need the other half to improve the stats of the rifle.

The bullets then ruin everything I just achieved.[/quote]

To the best of my knowledge, firearm and ammunition dispersion/recoil are calculated separately, with the sum of the two being used for the final value. I could be completely wrong (because I’m not a programmer) BUT I believe a temporary workaround might be to edit either firearm or ammunition values in their respective .json files. If you say, reduced the base recoil of a firearm to 0, and its corresponding ammunition type dispersion to 0, any mods you attach to a weapon would be much more effective. You’d be getting your recoil values from the ammo alone, and dispersion from weapon alone. A sniper rifle with a bipod, recoil stock, compensator, match trigger, etc would function much more reliably in that situation.

I’m pretty sure this would break intended balance to take the numbers down to that extreme.

[quote=“TheWumpus, post:44, topic:12750”][quote=“DG123, post:42, topic:12750”]Would it be possible to do something so that gun mods affect bullet recoil/dispersion?

“Currently” (in my outdated version) you can mod the crap out of a rifle to be perfectly accurate and have zero recoil… and as soon as you put bullets in it, it has insane recoil and the bullets can miss the target again.

This doesn’t make sense. If you are using weapon enhancements that physically stop the weapon from recoilling, that should be able to counteract the recoil generated by the bullets.

If you put a bipod and recoil stock etc onto a super accurate sniper rifle, you should NOT find that it becomes crap as soon as you load the .300 winmag rounds into it.

That’s currently my problem with my sniper rifles. Half the weapon mods I can put on them are pointless because I only need the other half to improve the stats of the rifle.

The bullets then ruin everything I just achieved.[/quote]

To the best of my knowledge, firearm and ammunition dispersion/recoil are calculated separately, with the sum of the two being used for the final value. I could be completely wrong (because I’m not a programmer) BUT I believe a temporary workaround might be to edit either firearm or ammunition values in their respective .json files. If you say, reduced the base recoil of a firearm to 0, and its corresponding ammunition type dispersion to 0, any mods you attach to a weapon would be much more effective. You’d be getting your recoil values from the ammo alone, and dispersion from weapon alone. A sniper rifle with a bipod, recoil stock, compensator, match trigger, etc would function much more reliably in that situation.

I’m pretty sure this would break intended balance to take the numbers down to that extreme.[/quote]

But right now I’m not seeing how the balance makes any sense. Sniper rifles don’t work as sniper rifles because you can’t lower the dispersion enough. And the effective range is too short. Which leads to using them when enemies are actually pretty close… upon which you find that the massive recoil that you can’t reduce causes the gun to be worthless after the first couple of shots so you end up reverting to using a shotgun, or the amazing Symbol of Judgement.

Match triggers etc are pointless on sniper rifles and only worth using on pistols etc where the gun itself is inherently inaccurate. Or maybe on a rather crappy long ranged rifle? Something seems awfully wrong here, since I want to be using my mods on my best guns and I want to see them being useful.

Nooo! You’ve got to somehow implement blood fuelled cursed Berserker armour in the arcana mod first!

[quote=“DG123, post:45, topic:12750”]But right now I’m not seeing how the balance makes any sense. Sniper rifles don’t work as sniper rifles because you can’t lower the dispersion enough. And the effective range is too short. Which leads to using them when enemies are actually pretty close… upon which you find that the massive recoil that you can’t reduce causes the gun to be worthless after the first couple of shots so you end up reverting to using a shotgun, or the amazing Symbol of Judgement.

Match triggers etc are pointless on sniper rifles and only worth using on pistols etc where the gun itself is inherently inaccurate. Or maybe on a rather crappy long ranged rifle? Something seems awfully wrong here, since I want to be using my mods on my best guns and I want to see them being useful.[/quote]

  1. Firearm calculations are weird. It’s possible to have negative recoil and negative dispersion. Try it and see what happens.
  2. Per the devs range is currently limited (bugged) at 30 max.

Until calculations are fixed, all guns have a hardcoded 30 tile max range. If you can solve this math problem, please PR a fix on GitHub as soon as possible, it is badly needed. If you can fix the technical problem that forces a hard cap of 60 due to the reality bubble, that would also be needed. The discussions around these subjects are archived in the links; Please refrain from posting complaints, as a technical solution carries more weight:





  1. Firearm calculations are weird. It’s possible to have negative recoil and negative dispersion. Try it and see what happens.

Both of these should be impossible. Additionally there is a PR going through that tackles recoil to make burst fire usable. Are you using the latest build (there was a buildbot problem for a while) - I ask because most of the dispersion comes from the guns and not from the ammo and the OP’s posts suggests otherwise.

  1. Per the devs range is currently limited (bugged) at 30 max.

It’s to do with the dispersion curve, the fix for which is non-trivial. Range capping at 30 should only affect a handful of highly accurate weapons and given the OP struggles at 20 tiles won’t be the cause here. As a whole the other guns became a lot more usable across a range of distances. You are waiting until maximum aim? There won’t ever be a ‘fix’ for shooting beyond the reality bubble though.

No, it would get slow very quickly

No, it would get slow very quickly[/quote]

Well how about making sniping with weapons a feature by the player having to set a direction, N/NE/E etc, then instead of the “bubble” rendering everything the game just calculates a wedge in front of the player, a wedge that’s 45-50 tiles long with an arc of say 10/15 degrees would STILL have to calculate a lot less than a circle of 15-30 tiles

Pi 30^2= ~2827 tiles^2

((Pi (60^2)) /24= 471 tiles^2

And that’s only an arc of 15 degrees 60 tiles long, considering it would be a key command and only usable on certain weapons this would make sense, no?

[quote=“DG123, post:92, topic:9298”]I have to say I’m not fond of some weapons needing to be mounted on tables or dirt piles before firing…

If you have power armour it seems reasonable to use them unmounted.

On the same note there’s no real reason why you can’t use a minigun unmounted except weight. They don’t have massive recoil.[/quote]

That’s probably a half second burst. Yes, yes they do have massive recoil.

[quote=“TheWumpus, post:52, topic:12750”][quote=“DG123, post:92, topic:9298”]I have to say I’m not fond of some weapons needing to be mounted on tables or dirt piles before firing…

If you have power armour it seems reasonable to use them unmounted.

On the same note there’s no real reason why you can’t use a minigun unmounted except weight. They don’t have massive recoil.[/quote]

That’s probably a half second burst. Yes, yes they do have massive recoil.[/quote]

In rebuttal…

It didn’t even visibly move when he started firing.

The other guy just isn’t holding it right to compensate for the sideways “climb”. Super heavy weapons generally don’t have a massive problem with actual recoil knocking you on your arse when the calibre is reasonably small.

I’ve also found a video elsewhere of someone using a Browning M2 hip fired. Not fully auto, but it works in single shot and doesn’t seem to be all that heavy or gigantic, all things considered.

Well hipfiring a m2 browning or a minigun isn’t all that practical.

Practicality is my #1 concern when I’m engaging zombies and triffids in hand to hand combat with my eight tentacles.

… Really dude?

Practicality…?

Also MASSIVE RECOIL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJp0OmlYFS4

lol… You’ve gotta be a 50 foot tall tank like the beast in this video to fire a mini-gun from the hip. LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THOSE BICEPS.

The reason they mount mini-guns is mostly due to the weight, not the recoil. They average about 39kg. By comparison the Browning Automatic Rifle that Americans used in World War II weighed between 7-11kg (empty) and was widely considered to be extremely heavy and cumbersome. Holding 39kg? Possible… Lugging 39kg around (carried in your arms) for a long period of time and firing accurately if you do with all that arm fatigue? Extremely difficult if not outright impossible. The heavy weight however actually acts to lower the recoil a great deal. So if the character can carry a mini-gun then they should be able to shoot it from the hip.

All three videos with those hipfired miniguns are shooting the same minigun (the DeGroat M134 (according to their descriptions)) which uses the same cartridge that the ingame minigun ingame fires (the .308 or 7.62x55m), meaning that it is technically possible to fire that minigun from the hip, provided you have a shoulder strap. In regards to whether or not you can actually hit something that way, the videos are inconclusive.

I agree with Funsize on the M2 Browning statement. Those things are as long as the average person is tall, and fire the .50 BMG round, which carries a lot more punch than the .308.

They’re probably limited to mounted firing for game balance reasons, that much firepower needs some kind of limitation. Maybe with enough strength you could hipfire them, but even then accuracy would still be a concern.

Yep.

Half the problem with the minigun is the ammo pack and the power supply adding to the weight. The ammo isn’t such a problem once you have one of the backpack kits. (At least, it holds about 1000 rounds.)
But the power supply is pretty heavy.

But considering in Cataclysm you’ve already got UPSes this wouldn’t be an issue.

I think the minigun should be a weapon you can use with a UPS and power armour at least. It’s not like I’ve even found one of the blasted things in game yet. And the ammo usage is ridiculous, so I don’t think this would mess up the game balance much.

I’ll just leave this here…

http://revision3.com/fullmag/handheld-m2

Wait a minute… A two by four is 1500mL? Okay

That sounds a bit small, if anything. Really small, now that I think of it.