Guns, too many? Too few?

[GrizzlyAdamz]

@Ferodaktyl

[quote=“DG123, post:133, topic:4531”]So I don’t think pistols are overpowered… Unless they’re too accurate at longer ranges, but I don’t recall that being the case in any version I’ve played.

really ?

Otherwise there's only so much balancing you can do if: The standard practice is waiting until zeds are close & shooting them point-blank. All guns are going to obliterate them, as they should, if you press the barrel right up against the zed's forehead.

[Marduk]

@Inadequate

I feel like you’re making quite a lot of assumptions there. Most roguelikes are still largely about swords and wizards, not exactly much overlap between FPS gamers and roguelike players. And having an encyclopediac knowledge of guns shouldn’t be a prerequisite.

My point is that you would be hard pressed to find any serious game a large part of which is combat in modern theme and has simplified away guns the way some people are suggesting here.
Any modern themed FPS, tactical, RPG, strategy game, your pick. It’s rather unlikely that many people who would even play this game have never, ever played other modern combat themed games that have guns at least as detailed.
The current system is not really any more complex or knowledge demanding than, say, Jagged Alliance games, or Fallout 3. There are named guns (some of them in the latter case) with different ammo types there, you can read the ammo type in the description if you don’t know it, you can read the type and some damage number about them, just like in Cataclysm, it’s the current standard in games even less detailed than roguelikes, so what’s your problem?
The other games i’ve mentioned here are not some niche gun nut games, these are popular, mainstream games and no one has a problem keeping up with the gun details.

Most roguelikes are fantasy themed, but that’s even more of a reason for a non fantasy one to actually start developing that niche, instead of trying to be as similar to the fantasy ones as possible, and avoiding any major differences.

@Inadequate

I’m worried the gun system becomes this insular thing, where everyone rushes in to toss in their own favourite gun, and any attempt to alter anything about it is sneered off as ‘casuals’ and ‘lrn2gun’, with no thought of balance with regard to the rest of the game, only for accurate representation of guns vs other guns.

I doubt it applies to any attempt, just attempt to do rather specific kinds of alterations to it.
By which i mean the kinds of alterations that include making the gun related mechanics less extansive, shallower, more handwaved away etc. The general idea with amount of different guns in this game so far is to keep a reasonable variety to complexity ratio - aka add only weapons that are different from those already there in some meaningful way. If you reduce the amount of differences possible in the system, you will reduce the amount of weapons that have a point in it, and generally make the gun aspect of the game shallower.

[Binky]

As far as a concrete suggestion, I would suggest we give all ‘non-standard’ weapons a tag which puts them on a very rare list for gun-nut basements, pawn shops and the like. This means no removal of content, and allows us to concentrate on a core of say 40 weapons (pulled out of no where, but that sounds manageable) which we can get REALLY tight balance wise. Anything historic or completely special military would get put on this list, and it’d be really rare. Gun nuts would go crazy if they found one, but it’d leave the rest of us with something manageable to remember/work with.

Also, for the record, I’d really hate to see guns stripped down to ‘bad, good, elite’ versions - that’s way too simplistic - it needs to be something like fallout 2, which has 37 roughly

Urgh, gun mechanics/reloading/jams have been extensively covered in threads still on the front page…

[Marduk]

[quote=“Binky, post:143, topic:4531”]As far as a concrete suggestion, I would suggest we give all ‘non-standard’ weapons a tag which puts them on a very rare list for gun-nut basements, pawn shops and the like. This means no removal of content, and allows us to concentrate on a core of say 40 weapons (pulled out of no where, but that sounds manageable) which we can get REALLY tight balance wise. Anything historic or completely special military would get put on this list, and it’d be really rare. Gun nuts would go crazy if they found one, but it’d leave the rest of us with something manageable to remember/work with.

Also, for the record, I’d really hate to see guns stripped down to ‘bad, good, elite’ versions - that’s way too simplistic - it needs to be something like fallout 2, which has 37 roughly

Urgh, gun mechanics/reloading/jams have been extensively covered in threads still on the front page…[/quote]

But that’s pretty close to the current system. Looking at the json now:
Makeshift\improv guns are not usually found, so let’s leave them alone.
There are 19 pistols, quite a manageable number, about 13-15 of them should be common.
9 shotguns, also manageable, 6-7 common.
11 SMG’s, about 7 of them common.
20 rifles, 10-15 common.

So yeah, we get 40-45 “core” weapons, which is most of the commonly found guns (60) already.

The rest are energy or heavy weapons that are damn rare already, so let’s leave them alone.

So in the end, what you are describing is hardly different from the current situation.

[Ferodaktyl]

now, almost totally off-topic , i browsed the net a little. Here’s some of what i found :

Good thing about shooting a bear with a handgun is that they can recover the slug later and confirm which bear ate you

if one chose to use a .44 magnum as brown bear protection, first it must be properly 'prepped'. The prepping he recommended consisted of grinding off, or otherwise removing, the front sight from the barrel....That way, when the bear takes the gun out of your hand and shoves it up your bum it won't hurt as bad

and some nice articles and youtubes :

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/live-hunt/2012/04/whats-best-backup-gun-brown-bears
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGHKkAvBWUE

[Binky]

[quote=“Marduk, post:144, topic:4531”]But that’s pretty close to the current system. Looking at the json now:
Makeshift\improv guns are not usually found, so let’s leave them alone.
There are 19 pistols, quite a manageable number, about 13-15 of them should be common.
9 shotguns, also manageable, 6-7 common.
11 SMG’s, about 7 of them common.
20 rifles, 10-15 common.

So yeah, we get 40-45 “core” weapons, which is most of the commonly found guns (60) already.[/quote]

I’d say we need it tighter than that though, in terms of pistols and rifles (obviously SMG and Shotguns need different numbers) I’d say we should have:
Common: about 5-6 of each
Rare: 5-6
Very rare - 10

Obviously I’m pulling these numbers out of thin air, but 5 pistols and 5 rifles are definitely enough for ‘common’ weapons, combining this with 3 or 4 SMGs and shotguns. So I’d say in total we’d have about 15-16 common weapons, and the rest pretty damn rare - mainly in pawn shops, gun nut shelters and the like, with very rare ones for the obviously OP ones and stuff.

To me, that’d add a hell of a lot more interest rather than ‘HERE ARE HEAPS OF GUNS’ - if I came across one I hadn’t seen, I’d want to use it see what it’s like, but if I’m constantly just given tons of random guns then nothing feels special gunwise really.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

@binky
I disagree. So long as it’s split among military/civilian/enthusiast, and the first two of those are dictated by caliber, the problem of ‘too many guns, I have to play mix/match’ goes away.
What other problem would cutting down variation, in & of itself, solve?

Wait, are you suggesting any cuts at all, or just how many ‘common’ should include?

[Belteshazzar]

Fucking /k/ I swear.

I’ve got guns I really, really like; but you don’t see me trying to jam it in and bloat the raws with my beloved (R 80) Colt Monitor Automatic Machine Rifle, the American 180, the De Lisle Carbine, or the Winchester Model 1887. Who snuck that filthy stamped steel, slavic, shellshitting PPSh-41 in before any of these fine Anglo-American Firearms, what dirty commie conspires against freedom so? Was it you HunterAlpha? Yesss, you do seem the sort to disdainfully snicker ‘clips’ to himself while fondling his Lenin engraved AK, ignorant that the most elegant weapons of freedom, the M-1 Garand uses EN-BLOC CLIPS!

No, I’d rather deny them all, myself included and fill the list with a list of fictional ‘in-setting’ weapons that nobody can argue about with stat-sheets, gel penetration videos, and antiquated FBI testing charts. Weapons with their own flavor and inspirations, but are designed to fill their role, not merely to satisfy some maddeningly long list containing everyone’s favorite flavor of dakka!

It’s all pointless in the long term anyhow, as you’ll soon enough be reduced to scrabbling through trash for nails and a few corroded shells to stick in a bottle full of some vaguely flammable liquid and chuck at the nearest pack of netherbeasts. You greatest goal to find enough sharp sticks and rope to trap an indescribable behemoth long enough to sheer some meat off it and choke it down after a light searing to kill the parasites… your darkest dream to get that pnematic weapon you’ve been cobbling together functional before the acid rains cave the roof down entirely and you must take to the sewers for shelter.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Well that was fun to read.

[sub][sub][sub][sub][sub][sub][sub][sub][sub][sub]Ps, I know for a fact the A-180 is in.[/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

[KA101]

I register a few requests for gun-spawns to get broken out some more? I’m on it, probably over the weekend.

[Steelfist]

I do not mind a lot of guns, so long as they are all different to some degree. I’d really hate to see Cataclysm get flooded with functionally identical guns and ammo.

[DG123]

@Belteshazzar

I’ve got guns I really, really like; but you don’t see me trying to jam it in and bloat the raws with my beloved (R 80) Colt Monitor Automatic Machine Rifle, the American 180, the De Lisle Carbine, or the Winchester Model 1887.

American 180 is already in game, and it’s god damned awesome.

I’d like to see a minigun added…

[Binky]

[quote=“GrizzlyAdamz, post:147, topic:4531”]@binky
I disagree. So long as it’s split among military/civilian/enthusiast, and the first two of those are dictated by caliber, the problem of ‘too many guns, I have to play mix/match’ goes away.
What other problem would cutting down variation, in & of itself, solve?

Wait, are you suggesting any cuts at all, or just how many ‘common’ should include?[/quote]

It seems that a lot of people are violently against the removal of any content. I (and GlyphGryph chimed in for that matter) believe that we REALLY do need to get rid of loads of the bloat/redundant stuff across the whole game, as there’s tons of it and it just looks sloppy and un-professional. Firearms are one of the worst offenders, because most seem like ‘this is my favourite gun, it is my life’ additions

However, as a way to please both sides, I’d suggest just massively (and I do mean massively) scaling back the spawns of most guns, but leave some common issue guns around. This would make the moments when gun nuts do find their Mosin-Nagants or whatever all the more joyful, whereas for the most part you can learn the guns/what works in what situation and have better balanced ‘main’ firearms.

[Marduk]

[quote=“Binky, post:146, topic:4531”]I’d say we need it tighter than that though, in terms of pistols and rifles (obviously SMG and Shotguns need different numbers) I’d say we should have:
Common: about 5-6 of each
Rare: 5-6
Very rare - 10

Obviously I’m pulling these numbers out of thin air, but 5 pistols and 5 rifles are definitely enough for ‘common’ weapons, combining this with 3 or 4 SMGs and shotguns. So I’d say in total we’d have about 15-16 common weapons, and the rest pretty damn rare - mainly in pawn shops, gun nut shelters and the like, with very rare ones for the obviously OP ones and stuff.

To me, that’d add a hell of a lot more interest rather than ‘HERE ARE HEAPS OF GUNS’ - if I came across one I hadn’t seen, I’d want to use it see what it’s like, but if I’m constantly just given tons of random guns then nothing feels special gunwise really.[/quote]

You call that firearms bloat? THere is just 50% more of them than in Fallout 2, which is an old game.
Just about as many as in F:NV, which is a modern RPG with strong combat focus.
That’s hardly bloat and it hardly has any negative effects on the game. You seem to be mentioning the mythical “players who have no idea about guns and learn really slowly” demographic, but how big it really is? If you want to know what real gun bloat looks like try Ja2 1.13.

As for your proposition, with 6 pistols you can barely have 1 gun per popular caliber and that’s it.
No room for revolver\handgun alternatives or such.
.22, .38, 9, .45, .40, .44.

4 shotguns? If that includes single\double barrel ones, which are needed for crafting, you get left with two. One pump action, one semi auto. No room for Saiga which is notably different from the others.

4 SMG’s could do as common, not that many of them, MP5, Tec, Ingram, Uzi.

As for rifles, in the common category we need a .22 one, a .223 SA, 7.62 SA, 7.62 bolt, SKS. That assumes military and other full auto guns go into other categories.

What do gun mechanics need is properly distinguishing bolt\pump action weapons from semi auto ones. Could be done like in DoomRL, and would make some “redundant” weapons less so.

[DG123]

I still can’t work out exactly how having more guns hurts anyone…

[Marduk]

1. Some people think there are already so many guns in game that many of them are redundant and it’s bloated in this regard. Which is not true, as there are quite some mainstream games with similar amount of guns.
   2.Some people mention a demographic of players who have absolutely no idea about guns and get confused by there being so many of them. Though i strongly doubt there is more than a handful of such.

EDIT:
It seems our whole discussion is pointless anyway. Something from another gun themed thread:

@Kevin Granade

Unless you’d specifically like to keep it seperate, I’d be happy to merge any and all real guns you want to add, for people that don’t want a huge variety of guns, part of the upcoming world builder thing is a streamlined way of turning certain content on and off, so the number of different gun, or even ammo types shouldn’t be an impediment.

[therealskitz0]

marduk thankyou that quote is probably the most helpful thing this entire thread has seen haha
i still believe this whole thread is useless and wont really acomplish anything haha

[GrizzlyAdamz]

+1 thanks for marduk, quote is relevant!

@skitz
I think KA said he’d toy with the gun spawns over the weekend?

@binky
Cut down on this kind of section:

It seems that a lot of people are violently against the removal of any content. I (and GlyphGryph chimed in for that matter) believe that we REALLY do need to get rid of loads of the bloat/redundant stuff across the whole game, as there's tons of it and it just looks sloppy and un-professional. Firearms are one of the worst offenders, because most seem like 'this is my favourite gun, it is my life' additions

If you want to have a calm discussion.

I think we’re all agreeing on revamping the spawns, as per, (I think), inadequate’s initial suggestion.

@everyone
What is ‘functionally identical’? I’d like an example, so we know what we’re talking about.

-I’d also like to mention a couple things that could provide more contrast (without removing things):
–Fire modes/multi-shot turns
–Magazines
–I think kevin mentioned a ‘fear’ mechanic a while back where various monsters would have effects on the player. The effects would worsen the closer the critter is, or if the player is injured by said critter. They’d improve as the player kills them/sees them die. Might put more emphasis on killing things before they’ve finished their charge right into your grill.

[ChristopherWalken]

Taking guns out is silly (unless I’m missing some particularly stupid ones).
Adding guns always improves games. And I say this as a mostly melee player.

Rebalancing? Sure, you do that.

On a sidenote I think we’re missing some Automags or a Wildey in the game.

[Binky]

[quote=“Marduk, post:156, topic:4531”]1. Some people think there are already so many guns in game that many of them are redundant and it’s bloated in this regard. Which is not true, as there are quite some mainstream games with similar amount of guns.
2.Some people mention a demographic of players who have absolutely no idea about guns and get confused by there being so many of them. Though i strongly doubt there is more than a handful of such.[/quote]

1. That’d be fine, but guns in mainstream games have distinguishing factors and are mostly well balanced. In most FPS games you’ve got a big selection of guns, but they have different ranges, firing speed, different levels of automatic fire, penetration, stopping power and so on (not to mention that there is the graphical side of things). At the moment, we have tons of guns which are pretty much identical, other than by names and the ammo they take.

2. That’s purely presumption, I myself am against gun-bloat and so are some others. Bringing up JA2 for gun bloat as if that means it’s fine doesn’t make sense as JA2 is primarily about guns, so of course there will be lots of guns. DDA has loads more in it, and guns should only be part of the whole thing rather than this huge list of pretty much the same weapon with different names.

@Marduk

As for your proposition, with 6 pistols you can barely have 1 gun per popular caliber and that’s it.

This would be common place weapons, and that’s probably about right as Law Enforcement and Mil. who would probably only have one or two standard issue guns. Other guns would have different levels of rarity, but I think it should be a sharper drop off between ‘common’ weapons and others.