Cataclysm's Complex Gun Issues

Game Talk The Drawing Board
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[size=8pt]itt i make people angry[/size]

[size=10pt]Cataclysm’s Gun Issues:[/size]

Cataclysm is a video game.

Video games tend to be simplified versions of reality.

Why, then, do we need like seven calibers of handgun/machine gun ammo where, in at least one case, two are nearly indistinguishable from another… and another ammo type from another caliber fills a niche in a similar manner? Why do we have two different shotguns that are almost identical, save for some number variations and their names? Why do we need a sawn-off Saiga-12 - actually, no, never mind, that’s kind of sweet.

My point is that Cataclysm is a game, not an armory management simulation. There should be some effort in keeping your stockpile filled and organized, yes, but I feel objecting to a simplification of the weapon system on the basis of ‘you don’t have to do it’ is ignoring the fact that something is included in the game that is not very game-like.

My proposals are pretty much unchanged from the last time:

1.) Reduce the amount of ammo types to something that makes sense. For example, .45 ACP and then FMJ, 9mm and then 9mm +P+, only one of the H&K/FN calibers, .380 and then 5.65432527whateverx71mm Incendiary. In essence, each ammo type has something that makes it measurably different from the others and a single ‘specialty’ version.

2.) Nuke the number of guns. I’m fine with having one pistol/SMG per caliber, a few shotguns, a semi- and assault rifle for the heavier calibers. I’d also be in favor of tongue-in-cheek renaming in the vein of that one vehicle mod (accepting submissions below), snatching up a Gluck 27 (or, hell, a gun called ‘Boomstick’) to defend against an oncoming horde. Anyone vehemently arguing against this one is welcome to explain why we don’t have Pepsi and Coke instead of cola or five brands of steak knife. Does it really matter so much what gun you’re sticking out the window of your apocalyptic death car to mow down ranks of zombies at 100 km/h? Or, for that matter, what gun you found that didn’t match any of the ammo in the racks at that gun store?

3.) Remove the grenade launcher skill. Yes, grenade launchers are different guns, but last time, no one seemed to have an issue with Firearms covering pistols, SMGs, shotguns, rifles, grenade launchers, and bows. The skill pretty much only seems to count for a slight buff to reloading if you manage to raise it, because even if you miss the roll for a direct hit, a miss tends to land close enough to count. This segues into my next point:

4.) Rework the firearms skills. I believe it wouldn’t be a horrible idea to alter this aspect of ranged combat, too. Archery’s its own separate thing, but handling of smaller guns, then larger guns, then experimental military guns is enough of a skill diaspora and would proceed to put ranged on somewhat more even footing with melee combat’s vague and general skillset. It’s even a little weird right now that shooting a Glock for long enough will let you pick up a revolver and reload it like a pro. I’m aware that different guns are different, but ‘small gun makes small bangs’ and ‘big gun makes big bangs’ should be enough of a distinction for a video game.

This is something that’s been discussed before, but I think it’s worth re-opening the dialogue in a different forum. One of the purposes of a game is to let you do something without having to actually do the boring/dangerous things associated with it in real life, like learn a plethora of gun names and calibers in order to shoot them at zombies; since I started playing, it’s felt like Cataclysm has included in its basic edition some Expanded Guns Mod that I didn’t particularly care for, but which I had to if I wanted to shoot up some zambies.

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Thing is… This is a rouge like, things are supposed to be rather difficult. The many types of ammo don’t make the game less fun, just more difficult. If every gun used mostly the same ammo then what trouble would there be in finding that particular type?

The different guns are built differently and are useful for different situation. You may not need the full-auto of some shotguns, cutting the extra ammo capacity for more range to kill that hulk.

As for Number 3) what? You don’t learn how to disassemble a grenade launcher by reloading an assault rifle, a grenade launcher is different enough you don’t learn about it when using regular firearms.

Number 4) Meh, needs more polish. I can’t be bothered to train 3+ different skills.

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Yeah, I’m uninterested in cutting down on the amount of guns, down the line when item maintenance and reliability is in, they’ll be a bit more varied, with some guns requiring more maintenance than others and whatnot.

4

Yay defense time!

I’m a little annoyed by the particular mindset that ‘roguelikes haaaave to be as difficult as possible’. It’s especially not the case when enough skill at Cataclysm makes it not particularly difficult, and particularly nettlesome in this particular case you’re bringing up because having to organize all of your million ammo types is not difficult, it is merely time consuming.

If every gun uses mostly the same ammo, that does not in itself imply that the balance of item drops is going to change so that ammo is any easier to find than it is now. It just means that you’re going to find 2 stacks of 9mm instead of one each of three different types with slightly different numbers.

The different guns are built differently and are useful for different situation. You may not need the full-auto of some shotguns, cutting the extra ammo capacity for more range to kill that hulk.

And this is fine; what I take issue with is that there are some guns or ammo types that do 2 more damage with -1 accuracy and +1 noise, and this is somehow interesting.

As for Number 3) what? You don't learn how to disassemble a grenade launcher by reloading an assault rifle, a grenade launcher is different enough you don't learn about it when using regular firearms.

Um, except you do. Firearms gives all ranged weapons a hit bonus. Not sure where this disassembly thing is coming from.

Number 4) Meh, needs more polish. I can't be bothered to train 3+ different skills.

But you’re fine with the current 5-6 skills, I guess.

See, if something like this goes in, it would make a little more sense to have a few different guns. If you absolutely refuse to make this aspect of the game neater and more streamlined, at least make the differences actually noticeable.

5

I love the fact that there are piles of different weapons. Making do with what you can find till you get your preferred stuff is one of the things that make survival games fun. Id much rather see more stuff like the ability to dumdum bullets and make ‘hot’ rounds by loading them up with extra powder.

Id also vote to add more gun skills, light and heavy lasers being the first, them probably LMGs and maybe crossbows so they arent piled in with bows. Also, having to organize your ammo isnt a hassle, just dont pick up the crap you dont want.

The more skills, items and random crap I have to play with, the happier I am.

Rant/wishlist: I also want explosives skill, some more pyro weapons (ever dipped a dunny roll in petrol, lit it then threw it? (dont)), chem weapons (ACID THROWER AHOY!), some dedicated throwing weapons, blunderbuss I could load with random crap, punt guns (kind of like a blunderbuss upgraded to cannon size), some serious heavy guns (AT rifle or something), some serious slingshots and slings (with associated skills), ability to mod guns with stuff like steel buttplates (we had an old rifle like this when I was growing up, apparently it was used to brain kangaroos back in the bad old days), scopes, night scopes, gun mounted lights, laser sights, ability to reshape stocks for better fit at higher skills, slings (actually up your accuracy in real life if used properly), pile more melee weapons would be good too, im still looking for something like a warhammer or small pick to replace my trusty hammer. etc etc etc. (Ive got more but its late)

6

Funny.
In the original forum they wanted an even more complicated weapon system…

The current one isn’t hard at all in my opinion.
You get a weapon and pick the green ammo.

When you have several types of ammo a gun can use then it shows up the stats like damage and armour penetration and you can just use the strong ammo or the weaker one. This is so simple I never had any problem with it.
Also I don’t see any problem in having several handguns and rifles.
Just pick that one that you think sounds the coolest or has the best stats if you take yourself some time.

And the skill system shouldn’t really bother you.
Most time I don’t know what skills I have in firearm or handgun or rifle etc. and I don’t care.
If I shoot a lot I become better.
That’s all you need to know.

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I don’t see any anger, keep trying :wink:

I reject your “video games should be simple” assertion. I want a game that rejects the “common sense” view that there should only be one item type that fills a particular niche. Scavenging is a central mechanic to a survival game, and a core concept of scavenging is that you can starve amongst plenty if the things you find aren’t the right things. It introduces a mechanic where you may have to make do with the available resources instead of having a smooth power curve from start to end that “well formed” games follow. This isn’t a zombie-themed game, this is a zombie apocalypse survival game.

However, you’re in luck, because there are two (2!) devs actively working toward moving gun and ammo definitions into config files instead of them being hardcoded in the source. What this means is that it will be very trivial for you to pick the guns and ammo you want and delete or comment out the rest, so they just won’t spawn in your game. Amusingly a major motivator for this change from my point of view is that I’d prefer even MORE gun/ammo types, and putting them in config files would make it feasible to have a mainline version with something similar to the current version of the game, another with a smaller number of guns, and another with many, many guns, basically every one I can look up.

I think rather than removing the grenade launcher skill, I want more heavy weapons to use it with, along with a potential rename to “heavy weapons” or similar for highly ballistic weapons with large projectiles.

I think the solution to this is to foist gun maintenance tasks (applying/removing gunmods, disassembling/reassembling ammo) off on mechanics, but it’s just not high on my list of priorities. Then firearms would purely be about skill in handling weapons that fire projectiles, which I think is the original idea anyway. Reloading speed boosts applying across arguably unrelated guns is irritating, but I don’t think there’s much of a solution for that other than making a separate reloading skill tree, which seems excessive.

I disagree in general about there being too many skills, and in fact one system I like very much is one with even finer granularity where you build up familiarity with a specific gun type rather than just with a class of guns, so if you use the heck out of the Glock 19, you’ll be building firearm and pistol skills as well as building Glock 19 familiarity, so if you then switch to a Desert Eagle, you’ll still have the firearm and pistol skill gain, but you’ll have to build up your Desert Eagle familiarity from scratch (though it would likely have a feedback thing where high firearm and pistol skill would accelerate familiarity gain).

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I am actually working on something with this.

First off, there is a lot of errors in the types of ammunition and the firearms that use them. 40Cal S&W shooting 10mm? Yeah no. There are several problems like this.

I put a post into the Mods/Contribution forums defining my goals and am open to suggestions, But in the same way everyone else explained, part of roguelikes is all the different random crap you find. That’s part of the fun.

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I love how one can burn thousands of rounds of ammunition and have no ill effect.

Also I like having guns be time consuming, nothing like dying because you grabbed the wrong kind of ammo.

It’s an easy<more gameplay thing.

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Let’s get some ad ridiculums out of the way.

Cataclysm is a video game, not an armory management simulation. Therefor, all firearms should be replaced with one item: Gun and ammo replaced with “Clips”. While we’re at it, lets replace all melee weapons with bashing weapon, and cutting weapon. Don’t even need piercing. Also, it’s a video game, not an culinary simulation, so please replace all food and drink with “nutrition item”.

Otoh, difficulty and complexity is good. So we should have handedness of guns and the player, so there is a chance to be hit in the face by shell casings, magazines and clips should be seperate items along with bullets, and shell casings should be able to be damaged and have a chance to split apart in the mechanism. We also need to constantly track the heat of each type of bullet along with the material of the gun barrel compared to the outside temp. Oh, and ricochets.

More seriously though:

1: As a base, civilian and military versions of each seem fine. I’m actually surprised there’s no hollow points. Weird stuff like 5.7mm is great in that it’s a trade off for a good gun, you have a harder to find ammo. Rat shot is so useless I like it being there, it’s like the booby prize of .22 ammo.

2: Number of guns:

"Anyone vehemently arguing against this one is welcome to explain why we don’t have Pepsi and Coke instead of cola or five brands of steak knife."
Because guns are way more interesting and different than pepsi and coke. If a hulk is baring down on me, it really does matter if my gun holds 6 or 8 shots. The differences between pepsi and coke are practically nil.

Just because guns have variety a large variety, it does not mean everything has to. Although, a plastic bottle of cola would be cool.

3: The GL Skill is more of an added bonus for using a grenade launcher a lot of times. It doesn’t seem to do any harm by having it in, and gives a small bonus if you’ve used them repeatedly. Or had an NPC train you in them. It is a pretty rarely used skill though, and having 0 in it doesn’t really hamper you. If it was taken out I doubt I’d notice. I like making it just “heavy weapons” in general, especially if that means I can use a belt fed 40mm.

4: Firearms seems a bit confusing. From firing a gun I can learn how to make bullets and attach a gyroscope. But I like the kinda “meta” combat skills, Melee, Archery, Firearms. It seems in some ways to indicate the general skill of knowing how bullets fly. Someone who is highly trained with a rifle but has barely used a pistol would still be better with a pistol than one who has used neither. It’d make more sense to me if reloading was affected by the actual skill, but to hit bonus from the firearms skill.

Finally, we should add .357 Pythons, Spas and Benelli shotguns , 10 and 20 gauge shotguns, 9x18mm, 7.62x25, 7.65mm, 9x39 and 5.45mm for some Russian love, .50 AE and BMG.

And muskets!

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Reminds me of the “tons of guns” option in Jagged Alliance 2.
I have stockpile of thousands of rounds of ammunition and I agree that you do not need 9mm, 9p+,9+p+. 2 types is enough as the difference is minor.
Also you cannot craft .45 fmj.

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Mark19 Grenade Launcher: Coming to a Homemade HMMWV near you! [size=1](that’s humvee to you civvies)[/size]

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While I wholeheartedly agree that cataclysm should not be dumbed down (and should in fact be made more ‘realistic’) I do have to agree that having such minor differences in ammo types seems a bit of a hassle/confusing and would have to agree with the ‘not an armoury simulation…’ argument to a degree.

My main concern isn’t necessarily with the amount of guns (although having different (non randomised) weapons in a game that are virtually no different is a bit strange…), but instead that I don’t see the need to have anything other than a strong and weak version of each type of major ammo (9mm - 9mm+) as it just becomes a bit confusing for a non-gun-nut. Although as Jimy said ‘you pick the gun and then the green ammo’ it can be confusing to know what goes with what gun if you’ve kept your guns at your base/ammo at base.

Granted it might be more realistic to have .44 American and .44 Russian and .44 Special and .44 W and then all the different weights of each but it doesn’t really matter when you just want to shoot a zombie in the face with either cheap and easy bullets or rare hard hitters.

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[quote=“Binky, post:13, topic:155”]While I wholeheartedly agree that cataclysm should not be dumbed down (and should in fact be made more ‘realistic’) I do have to agree that having such minor differences in ammo types seems a bit of a hassle/confusing and would have to agree with the ‘not an armoury simulation…’ argument to a degree.

My main concern isn’t necessarily with the amount of guns (although having different (non randomised) weapons in a game that are virtually no different is a bit strange…), but instead that I don’t see the need to have anything other than a strong and weak version of each type of major ammo (9mm - 9mm+) as it just becomes a bit confusing for a non-gun-nut. Although as Jimy said ‘you pick the gun and then the green ammo’ it can be confusing to know what goes with what gun if you’ve kept your guns at your base/ammo at base.

Granted it might be more realistic to have .44 American and .44 Russian and .44 Special and .44 W and then all the different weights of each but it doesn’t really matter when you just want to shoot a zombie in the face with either cheap and easy bullets or rare hard hitters.[/quote]

Is 3* variants in some of the common calibers really too much? And they really do have quite a lot of variation, for 9mm vs 9mm +P vs 9mm +P+ for example, the abundance of the rounds drop off sharply, and the +P and +P+ have WAY more armor penetration, so it’s completely reasonable to carry some of your rare +P+ in case you run across some ants or a hulk***. In reality I’d like to add hollowpoint variants for some of the more common ammo types (where it makes sense anyway) for more stopping power at the expense of AP. (specifically 9mm HP would be ideal for shooting regular zombies, and should really be quite common)

I think* 3 is the maximum number of variations we currently have within one caliber, e.g. 9mm.
**That’s what I get for thinking, checked and there are 4 types of 12-gauge and 6! types of 40mm, but I think they’re warranted. There are a max of three different variants of any regular caliber.
***Ok, maybe a brute, I’m not sure I’d want to go up against a hulk with just 9mm +P+ :wink:

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Man, I want them to be more complex and customizable. :slight_smile:

16

Fine with those guns that already are there, but I like the idea with more weapon mods, like flashlights, lasers etc… Also, add knuckledusters (in my country, we call them Boxers:), batons (both telescopic and tonfa, each with its own pros), and I dunno, maybe whole close combat should be made bit better, like ability to use two weapons at once (average human has two hands, y’know), I always wanted to grab a shield, sword and get medieval on them Z’s :slight_smile: This could apply on guns too, heheh, “John Woo, bitches!” opens fire with akimbo berretas

EDIT: It would need some nerfing though, like trading more damage for more protection, in case of that shield/sword thing.

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I don’t see any anger, keep trying ;)[/quote]

Patience.

I reject your "video games should be simple" assertion.

‘Simplified’, not ‘simple’. In real life, you’d need a few months of practice to get decent with a gun, or a bat, or a soldering iron. For that matter, in real life, gun stores have way more guns than Cataclysm.

My primary issue is that there can currently be several different options, sometimes non-evident and usually barely distinguishable from each other in any way but name, to go with the box of ammo you found in a rack; I would rather it be two of the same pistol than one with +1 damage and -1 accuracy from the other and a completely different name. Lighting it up in green was a good first step, but I’d like either less ‘realism’ concerning the potential choices or for there to be a more noticeable difference. I agree that the complexity can add a certain tension if you’re rifling through racks with a horde on your ass, but what it gains in that situation it loses in every other one where you’re completely safe… and arguably, the tension in that situation isn’t coming from which 9mm pistol to choose, but whether you can find a gun at all.

However, you're in luck, because there are two (2!) devs actively working toward moving gun and ammo definitions into config files instead of them being hardcoded in the source.

Would this extend to modding in custom weapons, or is it going to be a stock list? Would it also include spawn weights and stack sizes? I wouldn’t want to reduce the number of firearms or add new ones and suddenly have none appear at all.

I think rather than removing the grenade launcher skill, I want more heavy weapons to use it with, along with a potential rename to "heavy weapons" or similar for highly ballistic weapons with large projectiles.

[size=8pt]finally, thank you[/size]

I disagree in general about there being too many skills, and in fact one system I like very much is one with even finer granularity where you build up familiarity with a speci

Will there be familiarity for bats and knives and thrown rocks, too? The major problem with adding more skills is the current experience system. I hope you change ‘whoops, ran out of exp, better not do anything’ before you add anything else to soak it up. And for that matter, are we ever going to see changes in character creation making 0-skill starts less feasible? I remember something about classes and skillsets before Whales moved on.

Is 3* variants in some of the common calibers really too much?

Yes and no.

Shotguns have four types of ammo, and what do they do? One is low-powered, good for hunting. One is standard. One lets you use your shotgun as a rifle. The last lets you use it as a frag grenade launcher. (Notice that Cataclysm’s shotguns all use the same ammo, too!) Same for grenade launchers: most of their rounds have very different effects and can be loaded into any grenade launcher you find, and I’m holding out hope for RE-style acid/cryo/lightning grenades. 9mm, on the other hand, is one of seven pistol calibers and has plain, then +P, then +P+. One is the baseline. One is slightly better. One is noticeably better. Just kill the second type, balance the stats and rarity, and have the third be ‘the 9mm that’s better against armor’. On that same note, you could say that regular 9mm was hollow points all along, and I wouldn’t notice a difference, as it barely pierces armor now, anyway. This isn’t getting into .45’s three (thankfully varied) types or the two (slightly) different revolver calibers with two (slightly) different ammo types each.

On an almost identical note, 5.7 and 4.8 are the same, save for the one-point damage difference, the P90’s giant magazine, and a five-point AP difference (which doesn’t matter, both are ridiculous). Cut one of them, make the spawns a bit rarer, and it turns from ‘have 5.7 gun, 4.8 ammo’ to ‘have 5.7 gun, no ammo’, also known as a scarcity situation that happens all the time anyway.

Reducing complexity should not be confused with ‘dumbing down’, which is not to be construed as the polar opposite of what Cataclysm should be. There does exist a level between ‘hurf durf too simple’ and ‘more everything please’, and that’s what I’m trying to aim for. In the same vein, ‘difficult things can be time consuming, therefore the more time I spend, the more difficult and thus rogue-like Cataclysm must be’ is an erroneous assumption. Something can take a lot of time without being difficult, like sifting through a gun stockpile trying to find the statistically-barely-better option for your .45 ACP because you ran out of 9mm or something.

You’ll notice how I’m not complaining (nor will I ever) about adding construction options, different science labs, crafting options, gun maintenance, themes and flavor, stuff like that, because those things make the game more fun. Making your own ammo? Badass. Nothing is wrong with them. Skill bloat and overloaded item lists, on the other hand… if you want complexity and realism, why concentrate on infinity guns when you can add melee weapon durability, or deeper inventory management, or crafting options, or making staying fed more challenging/involved/varied, or balanced bionics, or something besides cramming more data into an area that doesn’t really need it?

Are they a minority who walk into a gun spawn zone and mentally distill things to ‘hmm, that’s a shotgun and shotgun ammo; hmm, that’s a revolver and revolver ammo; where are zombie faces?’ I like the sound of more flexible configuration in the future.

The differences between pepsi and coke are practically nil.

What’s the difference between a Glock and an USP 9mm? The response to these comparisons are the same: negligible to the point that only the people who maybe care about them a little too much will notice.

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My plans are to move them out to Raw files, so yes - quite customizable, simple to add and remove with ease. I also plan to include glosses, so simple variations like Coke and Pepsi will be doable (but not mess up things like item stacking, since they will be functionally identical).

It will probably be a while before I have results, if ever. But I’m hopeful!

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[quote=“Sonny, post:16, topic:155”]Fine with those guns that already are there, but I like the idea with more weapon mods, like flashlights, lasers etc… Also, add knuckledusters (in my country, we call them Boxers:), batons (both telescopic and tonfa, each with its own pros), and I dunno, maybe whole close combat should be made bit better, like ability to use two weapons at once (average human has two hands, y’know), I always wanted to grab a shield, sword and get medieval on them Z’s :slight_smile: This could apply on guns too, heheh, “John Woo, bitches!” opens fire with akimbo berretas

EDIT: It would need some nerfing though, like trading more damage for more protection, in case of that shield/sword thing.[/quote]

Everything you mention is on my personal list of things to add. all in good time.

20

Heheh… By words from Blood 2’s main hero, Caleb: “Time to start pilin’ up the bodies!”