Guns, too many? Too few?

therealskitz0 · 2013-12-17T18:53:53.000Z

also if you didnt know if know but when you have a gun in your inventory the corresponding ammo turns green in the list so unless your colorblind its not hard to find

Binky · 2013-12-17T18:56:10.000Z

‘Content is never be bad’?!!?! that literally makes no sense. You already said there were a lot of redundant weapons, so you’ve sort of disproved your own point. Why have them in if they’re redundant?

I wouldn’t say (for instance) 40 guns, all possible to mod and with a few different sorts of ammo, is simplicity really. 100 guns is impossible to balance because they’d end up being so similar that many would be pretty much clones of each other (and loads already are).

As Inadequate says, anyone who isn’t interested in guns is going to think it’s a positive thing, as having loads of similar but differently named guns has zero gameplay effect and just adds to tedium and confusion.

For something that has such a limited fan base, surely it’d be better as a ‘lots of guns’ mod?

–edit–
therealskitz0 - yeah, but only if you carry it with you. If you’ve got two or three rifles and don’t have the volume/weight to carry all of them (especially if/when the new volume systems come in) then you’re stuck and end up having to remember what you’ve got/look on the wiki. Surely that’s not great game design?

dwarfkoala · 2013-12-17T18:57:56.000Z

I’d like a gun in every catagory for most realistic ammo types. A 9mm rifle or smg, sure, but 4 or 5 50 cal rifles is not ideal unless there’s an actual differentiation between them apart from name.

Grandpuh_Ty · 2013-12-17T19:01:53.000Z

The gun tells you what ammo it uses last time I checked, so just pick up a preferred gun and keep an eye out for its ammo.

ClaytonRISING · 2013-12-17T19:02:50.000Z

Yeah there are a lot of redundant ones, but I don’t see the point in going back and removing content.

Some people like the variety and flavor currently in the firearm selection, some people don’t. But for the people who don’t it’s not like you’re forced to pick up every firearm. I’m sure if you’ve played for a while that you know which firearm fires what ammo, and for the people who haven’t it’s as easy as looking at the firearm.

I really don’t see the problem. Redundant firearms? Yes. Choice? Variety? Flavor? Yes.

Binky · 2013-12-17T19:12:38.000Z

Clayton:

I really don’t see the problem. Redundant firearms? Yes. Choice? Variety? Flavor? Yes.

It’s a mess for new players and is completely tedious in trying to find which weapon is better and get the right ammo for it.

Yes I know you can carry guns around or look to see what ammo it uses, but we have over 120 different types of ammo. I realise some of those will not be actual ammo (like thread and batteries and stuff) but even if only half of that is ammo, it’s still way too much and is just tedious.

People that want the variety and flavour can have it in a mod! That solves everything right?

Inadequate · 2013-12-17T19:13:16.000Z

dwarfkoala:

I’d like a gun in every catagory for most realistic ammo types. A 9mm rifle or smg, sure, but 4 or 5 50 cal rifles is not ideal unless there’s an actual differentiation between them apart from name.

This seems like a reasonable idea. And I’m not really sure why removing content is always something to be avoided. Heck, it’s barely even removing content, a simple namechange to most of those redundant guns would settle it. If they’re all mechanically the same, is there really that much flavour to it?

therealskitz0 · 2013-12-17T19:17:54.000Z

Blinky
Not true i store all my ammo and such in piles and next to that i have guns so i pick up a gun move over and grab some ammo which is highlighted in bright green

and if you look at most guns on the market today there are alot of similarities between models of the same caliber, granted their are exceptions to that rule but there is for everything sooo yeah

and if youve ever walked into a gunstore and looked at the wall behind the counter youd see that variety is noooo issue there haha and the gunstore that i like to frequent (i dont purchase often) has a neat little catalog of litterally thousands of guns they can get or have in the back room

Inadequate · 2013-12-17T19:22:33.000Z

If you really wanted to clean up the clutter without removing content, a compromise would be to limit gun stores and maybe military bases/soldier corpses/zombie soldier drops to a certain set of guns, and have some of the more redundant ones tucked away in basements/LMOE shelters/pawn shops. So the more common areas which people will try to obtain guns from will be limited to a few common guns/ammo types, making dealing with the clutter more manageable, and the rarer gun content will still be there for people who search for it. I think a big part of the issue is when people get frustrated because they walk into a gun shop, see a colossal list of guns/ammo, pick up everything and realise that not one of them is compatible with the other.

Personally I’d like a modular gunsmithing mechanic added, but I think the sheer amount of guns make it impractical.

therealskitz0 · 2013-12-17T19:25:32.000Z

seconded on the first part inadequete
and for gunsmithing i dont think wed be able to make anything of super high quality without high precison machines

Binky · 2013-12-17T20:18:37.000Z

[quote=“therealskitz0, post:48, topic:4531”]Blinky
Not true i store all my ammo and such in piles and next to that i have guns so i pick up a gun move over and grab some ammo which is highlighted in bright green[/quote]

Yes, but that’s incredibly tedious and shouldn’t really be encouraged/the only way to deal with it - the fact that you need to do something like that speaks volumes really.

Inadequate: I think that’s a great suggestion, although I still feel that some trimming could be done on top of that, especially ammo wise.

dwarfkoala · 2013-12-17T20:29:02.000Z

[quote=“Binky”]It’s a mess for new players and is completely tedious in trying to find which weapon is better and get the right ammo for it.

Yes I know you can carry guns around or look to see what ammo it uses, but we have over 120 different types of ammo. I realise some of those will not be actual ammo (like thread and batteries and stuff) but even if only half of that is ammo, it’s still way too much and is just tedious.[/quote]
The thing about 60 different types of ammo is that there are redundant ammos for some guns that have different properties. 9mm branches into three different types of 9mm ammo and each can be used as a 9mm round, but some are better than others.

Binky:

People that want the variety and flavour can have it in a mod! That solves everything right?

But sadly, Mod Manager is not in and the “Mods solve everything” argument is an impractical solution because with the rate that the project updates, any modder would have to be extraordinarily good at keeping up with updates in order to stay with the experimentals, or stick with the stables and risk what mods they have made becoming obsolete between stables.

Set · 2013-12-17T20:32:27.000Z

Here goes my first post in here…

I believe firearms should be limited to a degree where the existing ones are different enough until the firearms code is significantly improved so single shots with different types of guns have different movement/action point costs because AFAIK semi-auto/single shot costs the same amount of time for any gun, plus the time it takes to point, aim and shoot should be considered in the cost for firing a single shot. Furthermore there is no way to do a .json for multiple fire modes (IE: single, 3-round burst, auto), no significant difference between pump-action and semi-auto shotguns, nor a mean of trying to control bursts(as in having the possibility of emptying a magazine in a single burst at a higher cost of time, such as 300 turns(the equivalent of moving through 3 tiles with a regular character). Also there are the matter of how firearms in CDDA have no reliability/maintenance mechanics for now(and that would possibly make the more rugged bow/xbow have another reason to exist besides being quieter). In short it is a long way to go.

Jagged Alliance 1.13 is a good example of how to accomodate combat mechanics for glorious gunporn: firing a desert eagle pistol in that game vs. firing a puny, low stopping power Russian PSM pistol is somewhat like(if not as extreme) as the difference between using a sledgehammer vs. using a switchblade in melee in Cataclysm:DDA. Plus each gun has different reliability. The AKs are effectively inferior in performance to the Diemaco C7A2 when it comes to accuracy and recoil(and speaking of that one, it may have a place inside a “Canadian Mod” for CDDA), but they also were more rugged and required less maintenance

Basically I think this game still hasn’t enough guns but it needs an overhaul of the firearms code before adding more ends having a point, but I don’t think cutting off the already existing variety is a good idea.

Ander Hammer:

Mininuke launcher? Hilarious. A four-shot pistol that is rarer and a little more or less effective than another gun of the same caliber and approximate size? Pls no. Comically big rifle/pistol calibers? Put them in a mod.

I believe in the very, very opposite. Silly and completely obvious shoutout guns from other videogames that are plain ridiculous(including the shishkebab) should be the domain of mods or optional, while a good selection different firearms that exist in real life or that could plausibly exist in the not so near future like the Rivtech guns should be in the main branch.

therealskitz0 · 2013-12-17T20:33:47.000Z

Speaks volumes to what? do i need to have some super hyper advanced sorting system by the muzzle velocity of the bullet or some shit? no i throw my shit in piles next to the door and grab it when i need it
i dont do it cause its hard to find shit otherwise, i do it cause im lazy, if anything its the absolute opposite of tedious

dwarfkoala · 2013-12-17T20:36:45.000Z

Set:

I believe in the very, very opposite. Silly and completely obvious shoutout guns from other videogames that are plain ridiculous(including the shishkebab) should be the domain of mods or optional, while a good selection different firearms that exist in real life or that could plausibly exist in the not so near future like the Rivtech guns should be in the main branch.

I think that the fireweps could stay in the game if balanced correctly and placed into a book-learned recipe instead of being automatically learned when you get skills.

therealskitz0 · 2013-12-17T20:38:45.000Z

ooooo an anarchists cookbook would be fun

ClaytonRISING · 2013-12-17T20:43:51.000Z

I don’t understand the whole, “Just make it a mod!” mentality. How does having multiple choices of firearms effect your gameplay in a negative way when you can just…look…at…the…firearm…and…see…the…stats…and…ammo…

I really don’t understand.

therealskitz0 · 2013-12-17T20:48:32.000Z

seconded

Binky · 2013-12-17T22:08:57.000Z

[quote=“Clayton, post:57, topic:4531”]I don’t understand the whole, “Just make it a mod!” mentality. How does having multiple choices of firearms effect your gameplay in a negative way when you can just…look…at…the…firearm…and…see…the…stats…and…ammo…

I really don’t understand.[/quote]

I was being sarcastic, everything normally gets suggested to be put in a mod or an option.

The problem is that when you see the stats and ammo, they’re pretty much meaningless/close to each other/doesn’t matter. If firearms were completely rebalanced so that each point made all a difference, then sure, have guns going from -100 to +100 in each stat (I’m sure some people legitimately would want that), but at the moment guns go bang and kill things pretty much the same.

It’s confusing game play design because guns and ammo are so similar. If you actually had 100 different guns that did different things, great, but at the moment they’re just a big mess of overpowered redundancy.

Rivet · 2013-12-17T22:11:30.000Z

[quote=“Clayton, post:57, topic:4531”]I don’t understand the whole, “Just make it a mod!” mentality. How does having multiple choices of firearms effect your gameplay in a negative way when you can just…look…at…the…firearm…and…see…the…stats…and…ammo…

I really don’t understand.[/quote]

Because: A - whining about something is easier than actually doing stuff, and B - a lot of people have a very entitled ‘if I don’t like it then nobody should be allowed to enjoy it/use it’ mentality.

Having lots of content in the game is only negative if you’re too lazy to use your memory a bit, or if you’re just outright opposed to the inclusion of that content to begin with.

Simply put, if you think the game has too much content for you to wrap your poor little mind around, just ignore it. Don’t pick up those guns that offend you so greatly. Don’t hassle with the extensive crafting menu, or bother constructing things; it’s far too much effort to learn all that stuff. Don’t bother with clothes other than what you start with - and you should probably start as the default profession because the other ones have far too much character. Just spend the game killing stuff with your pocket knife and remain willfully ignorant of all the work that’s gone into expanding the game and its content.

Or go play Wolfenstein 3D! The second episode even has zombies, and with one knife, three guns, and a single ammunition type you’ll likely never be confused by having to remember that your 9mm pistol eats 9mm bullets.

Remember folks, C:DDA is set twenty minutes (or years) into the future. Sure most things superficially resemble the current level of technology, but we’re talking about a world where the six million dollar man is reality and people cruise around in plutonium powered cars as well. If we start pulling the laser guns, miniaturized nuclear devices, bionic upgrades, caseless weapons, and man-portable plutonium-fueled power supplies from the game we’ll be left with, what, a roguelike version of Left 4 Dead? I know that’s where we started initially, but we’ve grown a lot since then and it would be a terrible shame to destroy all of that progress because a minority of players can’t be asked to remember that their Ruger 10/22 holds ten rounds of 22LR.

I’m almost convinced we should make a version of the game for the ‘I can’t be bothered to actually think’ crowd that has one type of clothing, one type of tool, one type of food, one type of drink, one type of building, one profession, one type of monster, and no guns or cars or optional fun items.

Remember kids, all guns are ‘overpowered’ - until you run out of bullets. Or, as I once saw on a truly awesome bumper sticker, ‘God made man. Samuel Colt made them equal.’