Guns, too many? Too few?

deadmerits · 2013-12-17T09:54:02.000Z

As for the Rivtech weapons remark made by Clayton, my first thought about guns that can be removed was the Rivtech pistol that describes itself as overkill.

Ander_Hammer · 2013-12-17T10:09:40.000Z

Clayton:

Nope, PDW’s The very first PDW was the American M1A1 from World War 2.

‘They handle like SMGs’ implies SMG skill in game. That’s what I meant. Thanks for the superfluous info, though; it was enough to get me to look up the M1A1 and confirm that it’s a rifle, as well as PDWs and note there doesn’t seem to be a reason their firerate would suffer.

Way too overpowered and teh' ammo (especially caseless) is absurdly abundant, making her "end game" weapons...uh...not...end...game...weapons...

Did you know that things can be rebalanced if you give more feedback than ‘take this out pls’? You must also be pretty lucky if you never run out of caseless.

Yes.No.Maybe.Wut.

Thank… uh… you… for… what?

ClaytonRISING · 2013-12-17T10:12:41.000Z

'They handle like SMGs' implies SMG skill in game. That's what I meant. Thanks for the superfluous info, though; it was enough to get me to look up the M1A1 and confirm that it's a rifle, as well as PDWs and note there doesn't seem to be a reason their firerate would suffer.

Most PDW’s don’t have a very high fire rate, most are semi-automatic. Most people mistakenly compare them to carbines. MORE SUPERFLUOUS INFO

Did you know that things can be rebalanced if you give more feedback than 'take this out pls'? You must also be pretty lucky if you never run out of caseless.

Too over powered and the firearms and ammo are too common.
BAMN. Feedback.

Datanazush · 2013-12-17T11:23:30.000Z

I’d like to see more machine guns/Squad Automatic Weapons; Right now we have the M249, the RM614 LMG… and that’s it, there could be various different kinds, from the lightweight M4 variant M27 IAR to the General Purpose M60.
To list them, for American Machine Guns there’s the M27, M60, M240B or Mark 48 (They’re pretty much the same thing.)
Other Non-Russian MG’s could be the FN MAG, Negev, or the L86 LSW (The standard L86 could also potentially be added)

While they don’t fit with the standard ammo conservation business, I find that in the late game ammo becomes fairly easy to make.
On a side note, would it be possible to have ammo belts for most of these MG’s? So that you can’t somehow load 45 loose rounds into a belt-fed gun in less than a minute.

Marduk · 2013-12-17T13:34:24.000Z

The amount of guns is pretty ok right now. Could use few more weapons, but preferably only such that are not very similar to anything already present.
We are still far from the situation where gun type clutter is actually a problem in game, and variety is never bad.

Luissen · 2013-12-17T13:52:50.000Z

I think there are too many types of guns in the game compared to other content, but I do not support chopping guns, but rather accumulating other content. Unlike some people, I believe there are more solutions than merely removing things

Binky · 2013-12-17T14:00:17.000Z

To put this into context, we’ve got over 100 guns. That is WAY too many.

It’s been mentioned loads of times before (use the search function!!!) that guns and ammo are way too varied and that it’d be a lot better for non-gun people (and especially countries that don’t have gun ownership) to not have such a wide, needless, variety. It doesn’t add to the immersion for anyone, and just gets confusing/annoying for non-gun people to have to search through loads of different types of guns to find things that are just a tiny bit better than others.

I don’t think it needs to be (or is desirable to be) down to quite ‘pistol, smg, assault rifle’ but I really, really can’t see there being any point in main branch for more than three or four in each class and a few different types of ammo.

This would also help enormously with balance as 104 (or 5, I might have missed one or two) is way too much for even the pretence of balance.

Killer-of-Lawyers · 2013-12-17T14:02:43.000Z

There might not be too many guns as there are too many easily identifiable guns. Given that the game takes place in the future, it might be nice to see some more guns that’d be common in the future, and less obscure guns like the calico that are hard to find even today. (Also you should take a moral penalty for trying to reload one of those damn helix magazines without the auto loader.)

Now, flavor is fine, but it might not be a bad idea to do a rework on the guns in much the same way we got guidelines for melee weapons. Maybe coming up with guidelines that make things more regular would be nice. Things like, tying damage to the ammo, not the gun, and letting the gun decide things like accuracy based on it’s barrel or what not.

Either way, I don’t think the amount of guns needs clipping. Just some combing over. No need to remove content. If some content really bothers someone they can remove it themselves or push a modular content removal option for the code base.

[quote=“Binky, post:27, topic:4531”]To put this into context, we’ve got over 100 guns. That is WAY too many.

It’s been mentioned loads of times before (use the search function!!!) that guns and ammo are way too varied and that it’d be a lot better for non-gun people (and especially countries that don’t have gun ownership) to not have such a wide, needless, variety. It doesn’t add to the immersion for anyone, and just gets confusing/annoying for non-gun people to have to search through loads of different types of guns to find things that are just a tiny bit better than others.

I don’t think it needs to be (or is desirable to be) down to quite ‘pistol, smg, assault rifle’ but I really, really can’t see there being any point in main branch for more than three or four in each class and a few different types of ammo.

This would also help enormously with balance as 104 (or 5, I might have missed one or two) is way too much for even the pretence of balance.[/quote]

If guidelines were made then you could easily simplify things based on a few descriptors. Long barreled wooden stocked rifle, or short barrel bullpup with built in reflex sight. You could even code in a lot of modularity in (Which would tie in with the direction a lot of guns are going to anyways.) and let people modify their own weapons to taste. This would reduce the number of guns, while still letting anyone have whatever iconic gun they want.

Slax · 2013-12-17T14:07:36.000Z

Let’s say we had all of the guns. ALL OF THEM. People would still want more.
Yes to more future guns.
Yes to overhauls, updates.
No to removing stuff.

Killer-of-Lawyers · 2013-12-17T14:20:37.000Z

You know, actually, with modular guns you could have a lot of different flavor descriptions for guns people would want while still having them be functionally the same. For example.

Long barreled wooden stocked internal magazine rifle in 30-06 could be named any number of recognizable brands while still retaining that description.

I’d imagine if you combed through the list of guns you’d find a lot of guns that are similar. Like there’s a number of .22lr rifles that are all going to be pretty close. You could make it that sometimes when you get the right combination it’s labeled as Ruger 10/22 or a mossberg or whatever.

If you did this you’d have to look at all the things you would change on a gun. It probably wouldn’t be that big of a list, and it would open up some new things, like being able to keep actual spare mags for guns with detachable mags and so forth. As a thought experiment I might do a write up to see what it would take, what it would cover, and what it would open up.

therealskitz0 · 2013-12-17T14:24:55.000Z

im a hoarder so i like having that variety you get with having lots of firearms, and its that variety not with just firearms but with clothing or cars or anything else in cata really. while im not gonna be like “NEEEEUUU MAH BEWMSTIIICKS!!!” i would be really disappointed if the variety was reduced

Thats just my opinion
Dont hit me Cowers

Ferodaktyl · 2013-12-17T15:27:55.000Z

I don’t think the problem lies in the number of different guns, but on how OP they all are. Even with 0 skill, once i get any gun with the proper ammo i can walk on the middle of the streets one-shooting anything that comes close. Even the nail gun is enough to clear a town. This is what makes the number of guns redundant and makes the game a hoarding game after getting that first working gun.

Grandpuh_Ty · 2013-12-17T16:15:06.000Z

Guns reworked to be more balanced and less OP sounds good. Maybe even tie different damage values to different body parts, like what Fallout does. So less damage for hitting arm/legs and more damage for when you happen to get a headshot. Not suggesting an aiming system like DF, keep it how it is now but with that addition.

Variety. Yes there are lots of guns. I don’t really mind, I like it. I’ve raided many gun basements and often did have matching guns and ammo, making me have to choose between snagging the guns or ammo in hopes that I can find the compatible gun or ammo at the nearest gun store. Adds a kind of desperation. I feel like if we reduced the amount of guns(greatly) we might end up always being fully stocked.

infectedmochi · 2013-12-17T16:37:09.000Z

Just chime in to say that instead of remove existing guns, we should balance them. I don’t think removing variety from the game in the name of balance is the best option, if we cut down the gun number the chance to find matching guns and ammo will increase = more OP.

Inadequate · 2013-12-17T16:45:35.000Z

Even if guns are overpowered, I don’t think the difficulty of matching the correct ammo to the correct gun is the type of difficulty to encourage. It’s not a puzzle game, and it frustrates everyone who isn’t a gun nut having to scroll through a huge list of bullets/guns and play a matching game.

Binky · 2013-12-17T16:59:15.000Z

[size=18pt]How are we going to balance over a hundred guns??!!?!?[/size]

Seriously, that’d be impossible without having loads of things which are pretty much exact copies of each other from a game play perspective. This will only serve to confuse those who aren’t gun-nuts or have any idea (or desire) to learn about what the difference is between guns (especially when there is hardly any difference)

By all means, put THOUSANDS in a mod/option - for every other suggestion people are dying to have things as optioned/modded, so why not put it in there and let the core game have a smaller, well balanced list?

– edit –
Infectedmochi - we could just alter the spawning to keep it at the same, ridiculously OP’d standard regardless of the variety?

Inadequate - yup, completely agree. Even with the highlighting, if you haven’t taken the gun with you/picked it up yet, you have no idea what ammo you should be looking out for.

infectedmochi · 2013-12-17T18:32:51.000Z

You don’t have to yell, I can hear/read you just fine.

We can balance guns by adjust the spawn density and spawn ratio between good guns and mediocre ones, obviously that’s not all, some guns’ stat could use some adjustments as well.
But since when a hundred of guns impossible to balance? There are lots of em but surely the community can do it? We can’t finish it in 1 day, but open source project take a long time to develop too.

I’m not a gun-nut either, and I don’t mind it. And finding the correct ammo for the gun you are using isn’t really a matching game, just 'r’eload the gun, if you have the matching ammo, the gun will be loaded. Once you hoard enough gun and ammo, finding matching pair is trivial.

Grandpuh_Ty · 2013-12-17T18:43:13.000Z

I’ll balance the guns. All of them. All by myself. Just give me a few weeks to figure out how C++ (or whatever it uses) works. Anyways, simplicity can be good but it can also be boring.

Inadequate · 2013-12-17T18:43:50.000Z

There’s nothing else in the game with so much variety for so little actual complexity. Gun variety simply isn’t balanced against any other item in the game. The sheer variety doesn’t add anything to anyone who isn’t into guns, and rather turns them off.

And like you said, having so many different types of guns/ammo just encourages hoarding a ton of guns and ammo, which I’m not sure should be encouraged.

And I wasn’t sure if I should mention this, but the previous post clinches it - the most likely people who would even touch the firearms system are probably gun nuts who won’t rest until every possible gun from every era has been implemented.

ClaytonRISING · 2013-12-17T18:50:18.000Z

I think all of our ideas are good as long as we stay away from the “remove” mentality. Content is never bad; removing content is.

They could all be easily fixed: Lower their stats across the board, but make the bonuses for being proficient in them better. I think that would also help simulate the learning curve for the characters who have never touched a firearm before.

Also, there are a lot of redundant weapons, but I don’t think we should remove them. Rather, we should (devs and contributors) start monitoring the new firearms that get added to make sure they are a welcome addition.