you’ve obviously never tried to start a fire in real life then… less than 10 paper could make a runaway fire easily.
They could.
And just as well they could do nothing to the log if the log is somewhat damp and the wind is blowing in an unfavorable direction. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
All of this is probably solved through flammability. Right now you just have a few flammability flags and fire doesn’t really take into account environmental conditions. It’s very bloated and needs a redesign. The question is how much simulation is enough?
If we’re going to map realistic difficulty on fire starting, it should involve the survival skill. And it’s very rare for starting a fire to be as difficult as this. This is absurd.
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Maybe I’m missing something, but what exactly is “difficult” about fire starting in the “bugged” meta?
I put 2-3 long branches into a fire ring, cut one of them into wood splinters and then ignite one torch and keep using that torch to re-ignite the fire ring.
Less than a couple of in-game minutes later, the fire is started and stable.
Um, I think you’re kind of missing the point. Whether you think it’s actually “difficult” or not is up to you, but the fact remains that if you look at the Github report that was linked, you’ll see that you’re not using the “correct” method as you claim, you’re simply exploiting the bug to create a workaround. Yes, it’s possible to create a stable fire if you take ridiculous steps, but that is honestly not the way the game is supposed to work. Yes, irl you probably can’t just set a plank on fire with a match, but per your explanation you still have to relight your fire several times after piling on dozens of splinters and branches as kindling. And let’s be realistic, is it really necessary to relight your campfire several times in real life?
I fail to see how shoving a burning torch a few times into a pile of wood splinters to start a fire qualifies as “ridiculous”.
In real life you usually sit by the fire for a few minutes manually feeding tinder into the fire to insure it gets going (unless you soaked it with lighter fluid or something). If you don’t do that, yes, it’s entirely possible the fire will not catch on the first try.
So first, the current situation is a bug, I made an adjustment that was supposed to apply to everything but fire, but the code to exclude fire did not work the way I thought it did, so it applied to fire as well, breaking things.
Second, I agree about kindling and firestarting and such, the way the game handles it ends up being super complicated and not working very well, it really needs a total overhaul.
The direction I think that overhaul needs to take is seperating fire into a few categories that are handled very differently.
- Constructed fire such as a campfire or a hearth fire or a brazier fire. This should take a fixed amount of time based on materials and tools, and yield a reliable and contained source of heat that also gets marked as a target for refueling.
- Environmental fires like “set a pile of trash on fire” should work roughly like fire fields do now, but with a lot of code that attempts to make contained fires work removed.
- Structure fires like “a burning house” are a very different beast from just setting the stuff on the ground on fire, and could very much stand to be handled in a very different and probably more streamlined way to enable large structure fires to not bog down game speed.
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Sorry, I was rereading my comment and I really didn’t mean to sound rude, but you’ve got to admit that what’s currently happening is almost as unrealistic as the normal fire system. I totally agree that it would be really nice to have proper kindling/firestarting system, but I’d want some information on how it would actually work instead of just being thrown in like this. Also, you’ve got to admit that you do need gasoline/alcohol for a torch, which I wouldn’t have any of on an island, and I feel like irl you usually shouldn’t need a full-blown torch to light a fire if you take the proper steps.
Not the only option in the current meta. You can also make a torch with some pine needles:
You don’t need a torch in the game either. It just speeds things up somewhat and/or allows you to save on matches.
At any rate, my primary gripe with previous fire starting system is what I would call “weaponized arsonism”. I. e. the practice of setting a tile on fire to lure an enemy into it.
While fire pits (and the like) are definitely a viable trap/barrier in concept, there are a few problems with how incredibly easy those were/are to set up. Namely:
- fire gets hot enough to start damaging enemies waaay too quickly (effectively within a few seconds from being started) even if only moderately flammable material are used to fuel it (wood, etc)
- there are effectively no minimal fire size requirements for it to become dangerous (you can lit a few arm-sized sticks on fire and it still engulfes the whole tile)
- enemies running into the fire do nothing to help extinguish it and/or spead it
In practical turns, I would expect only two types of fire to deal significant damage simply for standing in the same tile as they are:
- a fire that has both lots of fuel in it AND has been going for at least several dozen minutes (to grow large enough)
- a fire started with explicitly extremely flammable substances in sufficient volume (i. e. Molotov cocktail and above)
And both of these fire types should probably start to break containment and spread out like crazy when something runs into them.
thats not entirely true, theres 3 tiers of fire, small fires (low fuel/almost going out) will deal approximately 2-6 damage to the legs of whatever is standing in it, larger fires deal 6 to 12, and get the on fire debuff, a really large fire does 10 to 20 damage, and the on fire debuff… from the sounds of things you’re more or less making a fire pit with enough material for a tier 2 or 3 fire and then having a zombie stand in it, which would likely kill it yeah…
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The kicker is, it doesn’t have to be a pit. Not even a shallow one.
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You know, the pit thing is a really good point as well. If the pit is deep enough there’s no freaking way a fire would manage to escape. You could just make sure the fire doesn’t get too big or dig the put deeper. It could potentially be used as a brazier in a way.
I mean, that’s what a fire ring is.
It’s an equivalent to a brazier that you dig into the ground and surround with a ring of rocks (to help manage the spread of firebrands).
Not the only option in the current meta. You can also make a torch with some pine needles:
Um… you need a fire or hotplate, etc. which I don’t have, for the pine bough torch version, which takes three minutes to craft? Just saying… At present fires go out in about one minute…
You don’t need a torch in the game either. It just speeds things up somewhat and/or allows you to save on matches.
Thanks, I got that, it just seems a bit overkill to have to light your fire several times, especially in the early game when you probably don’t even have a lighter or matchbook… If you have to use several matches at once, one way or another, to even get a fire going, well, that’s not going to end well.
At any rate, my primary gripe with previous fire starting system is what I would call “weaponized arsonism”. I. e. the practice of setting a tile on fire to lure an enemy into it.
While fire pits (and the like) are definitely a viable trap/barrier in concept, there are a few problems with how incredibly easy those were/are to set up. Namely:
- fire gets hot enough to start damaging enemies waaay too quickly (effectively within a few seconds from being started) even if only moderately flammable material are used to fuel it (wood, etc)
- there are effectively no minimal fire size requirements for it to become dangerous (you can lit a few arm-sized sticks on fire and it still engulfes the whole tile)
- enemies running into the fire do nothing to help extinguish it and/or spead it
Well, as zantenzuken said, how much the fire damages really depends on how large it is, and profession zombies/upgraded zombies can easily tank a few. Honestly, I’ve never tried to weaponize a fire without plenty of fuel/highly flammable substances (fungus) that result in at least tier 2 fires, so I can’t speak to the damage of tier 1 fires. As far as I can tell, you’d like less damage for small fires/another gradient of fire (very small, etc.) if you put very little fuel in? Correct me if I’m wrong.
enemies running into the fire do nothing to help extinguish it and/or spead it
And both of these fire types should probably start to break containment and spread out like crazy when something runs into them.
Hmmm, that actually sounds pretty interesting. So you’re thinking of adding something to make any enemy that has the “burning” status have a small chance of lighting on fire any flammable tiles that they step on, depending on their composition?)For having enemies extinguish fires, maybe have something like a set percentage for a fire to be knocked down a tier each time someone steps into it, which drastically decreases the larger the fire is (probably excluding very flammable enemies like triffids, fungus, etc.)?
In practical turns, I would expect only two types of fire to deal significant damage simply for standing in the same tile as they are:
- a fire that has both lots of fuel in it AND has been going for at least several dozen minutes (to grow large enough)
- a fire started with explicitly extremely flammable substances in sufficient volume (i. e. Molotov cocktail and above)
Well, that is pretty much how the current fire system works.
The kicker is, it doesn’t have to be a pit . Not even a shallow one.
Um, I fail to see how this is relevant?
Any thoughts?
You can start your first fire with just a fire drill (and an hour to spare). Once that one gets going, you craft a few torches. With torches, next fire will take a minute or two to start.
Hmm, interesting… Thanks for the workaround, anyway, but I actually found a smoking rack in this run, so I think I’m pretty much set for cooking (my earlier wizard bled to death after getting mauled by three mutated dragonfly naiads). Of course, I still need to get some more charcoal, but by the time I run out I should have constructed a charcoal kiln.
I started as Corporate Infiltrator (8 points) on Helicopter Crash scenario, with kukri, remote cam and controller, hologram projectors, and Rivtech weapon with 400 5x50mm flechettes, so I shouldn’t have a problem clearing a small town to get the materials. The profession’s from Aftershock, if anyone’s curious. Until then, though, I should probably save charcoal for smoking, so… guess I’ll try your method for now.
My problem is mostly a purely functional one: in the current meta you can throw something moderately flammable on the ground (a few rags or sticks) and set it on fire within a few seconds, and it starts dealing good damage right away. And you can just decide to do that on the spot — you don’t need to prepare anything ahead of time. While 10-ish damage may not seem like much, that’s unavoidable damage every turn. That can easily turn an otherwise impossible fight into a fight were you just need to stand your ground for a few turns.
Again, this kind of shenanigans is what’s highly flammable stuff (like Molotov cocktails) are for. Using just a few random sticks and a match to get the same effect as a Molotov cocktail (and practically just is quickly) is just… off.
Nope. Yoy can get a deadly fire going within a few seconds with just a few sticks and a match. I’ve literally started such fires within a time it takes an enemy to move less than 10 tiles.
If there is nothing to contain the burning fuel (no “pit”), an enemy running into such fire will most likely just kick most of the fuel away on arrival. Thus reducing fire intensity in it’s tile, and increasing fire intensity in neighboring tiles.
My problem is mostly a purely functional one: in the current meta you can throw something moderately flammable on the ground (a few rags or sticks) and set it on fire within a few seconds, and it starts dealing good damage right away. And you can just decide to do that on the spot — you don’t need to prepare anything ahead of time.
So, if you don’t want another gradient of fire or something of the sort to force you to take some time for the fire to ramp up first, what would you be suggesting?
While 10-ish damage may not seem like much, that’s unavoidable damage every turn . That can easily turn an otherwise impossible fight into a fight were you just need to stand your ground for a few turns.
Well, if you think about it, if your opponent is standing on top of a small fire while you fight, it’s probably going to give you a fairly large advantage.
Nope. Yoy can get a deadly fire going within a few seconds with just a few sticks and a match. I’ve literally started such fires within a time it takes an enemy to move less than 10 tiles.
Again, what would you propose to fix this other than making small fires do less damage or having them take more time to grow larger?
If there is nothing to contain the burning fuel (no “pit”), an enemy running into such fire will most likely just kick most of the fuel away on arrival. Thus reducing fire intensity in it’s tile, and increasing fire intensity in neighboring tiles.
Oh, my bad, didn’t think of that. I feel like that would be pretty weird to implement, though… there’s a certain point when you have to decide how much realism you can actually do. What were you imagining?