Deadlier advanced zombies

[acehawk]

I feel like once regular zombies become easy to deal with, all zombies become easy. This could possibly be fixed by making the advanced zombies more effective. Spitter acid melts your equipment rapidly (if it isn’t acid resistant), shockers can stun you for a few turns (longer if you have too many bionics), hulks can cave in power armor with a single strike from their bolder-like fists and they bypass blocks through sheer strength, boomer goop massively increase your scent for a few hours (causing you to be tracked by everything anywhere nearby). Simply take their existing strengths and ramp them up to 11. Hulks especially should be completely lethal forever. Things like this wouldn’t make much of a difference to early game characters, they will die to a hulk just as fast, they should really avoid shockers anyways, but they will ensure that they present an ongoing threat even to well equipped characters. Suddenly getting stuck between a bunch of normal zombies with a spitter and shocker nearby is scary again!

[gammaflux]

I feel like once regular zombies become easy to deal with, all zombies become easy. This could possibly be fixed by making the advanced zombies more effective. Spitter acid melts your equipment rapidly (if it isn’t acid resistant), shockers can stun you for a few turns (longer if you have too many bionics), hulks can cave in power armor with a single strike from their bolder-like fists and they bypass blocks through sheer strength, boomer goop massively increase your scent for a few hours (causing you to be tracked by everything anywhere nearby). Simply take their existing strengths and ramp them up to 11. Hulks especially should be completely lethal forever. Things like this wouldn’t make much of a difference to early game characters, they will die to a hulk just as fast, they should really avoid shockers anyways, but they will ensure that they present an ongoing threat even to well equipped characters. Suddenly getting stuck between a bunch of normal zombies with a spitter and shocker nearby is scary again!

I agree with some (but not all) of your post. Upgrading the acid zombie or shocker zombie would make it insanely tough for newbies to start off in the town.

I do however agree that Hulks should be able to bypass (most) blocks. Possibly add an effect that allows the hulk to freely move through (most) destructible terrain with no penalty. (examples: Bushes, Windows, Mutated poppy fields, etc…) Breaking through a wall on the other hand should slow them down. (it’s much sturdier and would actually take a split second to slow them down.) Possibly give the hulk more armor (all that muscle mass.) and maybe a little bit extra health.

Additionally I fully agree with the Boomer giving you a strong scent (until you wash it off somehow.) Possibly make the Boomer exhibit a big Boom when it explodes deafening you as well, and attracting most zombies in a small radius towards you. Being unable to see/hear could be a deadly combination if you do it while surrounded and could lead to more fun.

Maybe some specialized rare zombies that only show up after X amount of days?
Runners: These guys can run up to 60 mph, but attack at normal speed. Incredibly dangerous for drivers who like to run zombies over. These Runner zombies will attack the whole car if it means getting to the juicy victim inside. (Normally show up in small packs but driving away from them may end up with you having a whole squadron of them on your tail.)

Additionally these zombies are actually intelligent and will try to avoid getting run over and will aim for weak points of the car/building you’re in. (These zombies are Uncommon/Rare and can show up almost anywhere, most prominently in the wilderness. Fleeing from them in a city will test your driving skills.) Fleeing on foot is (usually) not an option. (They are not particularly strong)

Buried: (Very Rare) Zombies that have died/are underground. They will pop up one space away from you if you step next to them. Usually these are very rare, but grave-sites seem to have a lot of them.

Brawler Zombie: (Common to Uncommon) These zombies have seem to retained some of there fighting skills. Bites will be replaced with kicks, punches, and even grabs. They have a moderate amount of health and even know how to dodge. If they pin you to the ground they will attempt to spread their infection through biting. (Slightly above average speed, but they shouldn’t be able to run faster than you.)

Martial Master Zombie: (Very Rare to Extremely Rare) If the hulk is pure brute force than the Martial Master Zombie is pure skill. These zombies know an actual martial arts style, and will use these styles with force to bring down their prey. Spending so much time practicing their art there attacks and speed lose no force even after death. In fact they are one of the very few zombies which will not bite. Don’t engage these guys in hand to hand combat unless you know what you’re doing. They have high health (not as high as a Hulk), high dodge skill, and a great attack, with decent speed, and can even swim/climb. (They can’t be outrun in a fair race.)

If you’re extremely unlucky you’ll find a small batch of these guys in a dojo. Normally they are found roaming the city. But every now and then a rare hermit martial master zombie may spring out of the woods. (and if you’re super duper unlucky you’ll fight a zombie who can disarm you.)

(Note: These are also one of the only zombies to have variable melee/unarmed/dodge stats)

Weapon Zombies: Zombies that have learned how to wield weapons. They will swing their weapon around wildly trying to kill you. They don’t really know how to use their weapons though. But if they do hit you can bet it’ll hurt. Additionally they can also block with their weapon. (if it’s possible.)

(Variable weapons from a list are chosen, and yes they can wield guns, but they’ll just swing it around as they don’t know how to fire.)

Master Weapon Zombies: (Extremely rare) Like a mix of the Martial Master Zombie and the hulk. Combining Skill and Power these Zombies know how to use a weapon and use it well. Again you may find a small pack of them in a dojo (or weapon gym/dojo if that ever gets put in.) They start off with a random weapon usable for training/actual fighting.

(Examples: Wooden Sword, Katana, Hatchet, Spear, Nunchaku etc…)

They have variable dodge/melee/weapon skills (medium - high)/unarmed (low to medium at best)

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I think this would be some pretty cool zombies. Plus unarmed martial arts battles against zombies would be pretty awesome.

[acehawk]

I kindof feel like towns are already death zones for noobies, the first thing they need to learn is to avoid town centers until they are ready, so I’m not concerned about making it too hard on them.
Some additional thoughts. Spitter acid could stick to you for a few turns, causing pain, minor damage, and having a % chance of damaging items each turn. You could wash it off with water to end the effect immediately, or wear acid resistant items to mitigate the effect(a raincoat would work great here for early characters)

Shockers could cause convulsions in addition to pain, slowing and reducing dex, this effect would become weaker each turn. (I’m not sure if they already do this to be honest, I can’t fire up the game right now to check. If they do, it isn’t very effective as far as I can tell)

[vache]

I’m a fan of acehawk’s ideas for the most part. I don’t like the idea of the spitter zombies destroying items in your inventory, maybe it would be okay if it only affected clothing. I’d throw in some more “tactical” style zombie types, like slimer zombies that spit a goo field that slows you down. Capability for “random effect” type monsters would be good, especially in the context of something like a mutated or bionic zombie.

[acehawk]

I’m a fan of acehawk’s ideas for the most part. I don’t like the idea of the spitter zombies destroying items in your inventory, maybe it would be okay if it only affected clothing. I’d throw in some more “tactical” style zombie types, like slimer zombies that spit a goo field that slows you down. Capability for “random effect” type monsters would be good, especially in the context of something like a mutated or bionic zombie.

I actually meant worn items, as a method of weakening/destroying armor to make the player vulnerable to other zombies. My apologies if I implied inventory items.

[bugsniper]

I’d prefer to either not have backpacks destroyed by acid have that chance be very low because it’s very annoying to have to return to retrieve big tools I’ve left behind because my backpack broke from the acid.

Runner zombies are interesting. They will make spiked plating a whole lot more useful basically everywhere, even on the rooftop. Good cars should be able to shake them off and then run over them. They should also have a good chance of being killed at tunnels. They should also run out of energy quickly because they aren’t made of gasoline.

These special zombies shouldn’t be added with the surrounded start option enabled because it is difficult enough already.

[KA101]

Shockers can and do kill folks already. Not sold on upgrading them.

Runner anti-vehicle zeds are interesting; a Sludge Spitter might be worthwhile too.

Bionic-operator zeds are about as good as they get for combat “skills”: the Blob has intermittent access to the CQB aug and uses that. Master zeds are the top of the intelligence heap (Necro zeds right below 'em), and should probably be given the Brain Blob directional capability. A zed with PC-level combat capabilities and the intelligence to use them would be a one-off boss, at best.

(That’s the whole point of zeds: they’re dumber than you. That’s why they use hordes.)

Hulks being able to override MA blocks (that’s how I interpreted “bypass block”) is Interesting. TKD’s bonus-blocking* and Toad Style’s armor should still work against 'em (defensive bonuses are why you take those styles), but I’d accept them pummeling through an “ordinary” block.

*As in, the additional reduction still kicks in. Where normally you’d be talking 60-70% reduction (50% + bonus), 20% v. Hulk, but still better than 0% with non-TKD.

[gammaflux]

@KA101

Yes, the zeds are dumber than the PC, but I think every now and then a rare “smart” (if you want to call it that.) zombie should pop up to make things interesting.

Regarding Hulks bypassing blocks, yes that is exactly what I meant. You shouldn’t be able to block a punch from a giant towering zombie with your arm and expect to take no damage whatsoever. I think this change will make things much more interesting in a way. (I did however, not think about Toad Style/TKD style. But yes that sounds about right that they should be the two exceptions for armor/blocking.)

Also I’m glad you liked my Runner Zombie idea

[kevin.granade]

I’m also in favor of stronger enemies bypassing blocks (once we get blocks working again anyway) probably have brutes do it to some extent as well,

With the more intelligent monster ideas, they just shouldn’t be zombies. It’s generally not a good idea to set up expectations and then completely reverse them.
As KA101 says, the necromancer is pretty much the pinnacle of zombie intelligence, and even they aren’t all that smart, they just have a simple behavior they do.

For gun/weapon/martial art enemies, I’m way more in favor of ‘crazies’ types, they’d be dangerous in a totally different way than zombies.

Like with the smart enemies, I’d rather not stretch the concept of fast zombies quite that far. This sounds like a job for some kind of aggressive bird enemy. A simple but effective behavior would be for them to follow at a distance when you’re in a car, and avoid the path directly in front of the vehicle. Then they become aggressive and attack when the car stops moving. Ideally they’d avoid or be immune to being run over at low speeds. Even if they move at 30mph or so, it gives a benefit to being able to move at high speed to lose them.

[gammaflux]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:9, topic:6125”]I’m also in favor of stronger enemies bypassing blocks (once we get blocks working again anyway) probably have brutes do it to some extent as well,

With the more intelligent monster ideas, they just shouldn’t be zombies. It’s generally not a good idea to set up expectations and then completely reverse them.
As KA101 says, the necromancer is pretty much the pinnacle of zombie intelligence, and even they aren’t all that smart, they just have a simple behavior they do.

For gun/weapon/martial art enemies, I’m way more in favor of ‘crazies’ types, they’d be dangerous in a totally different way than zombies.

Like with the smart enemies, I’d rather not stretch the concept of fast zombies quite that far. This sounds like a job for some kind of aggressive bird enemy. A simple but effective behavior would be for them to follow at a distance when you’re in a car, and avoid the path directly in front of the vehicle. Then they become aggressive and attack when the car stops moving. Ideally they’d avoid or be immune to being run over at low speeds. Even if they move at 30mph or so, it gives a benefit to being able to move at high speed to lose them.[/quote]

Good enough for me! I’d honestly be really happy if one of my ideas actually got put into the game. Now to reach into my brain to pull out another idea. “Skull-head zombie” Basically a brute zombie, only it has strong thick bone armor covering it’s head making it impervious to head-shots! (Probably not that interesting is it?)

[infectedmochi]

I think a general “armored zombie” would be nice to have, slow and can’t inflict great damage, but with extreme armor that make you waste high-power ammo and explosive on them. Should be rare enough to not be an immediate problem.

[HunterAlpha1]

[quote=“infectedmochi, post:11, topic:6125”]I think a general “armored zombie” would be nice to have, slow and can’t inflict great damage, but with extreme armor that make you waste high-power ammo and explosive on them. Should be rare enough to not be an immediate problem.[/quote]Aka Zombie Bio Operators.

[infectedmochi]

No, I said slow and can’t inflict great damage. A low to medium threat, not high danger like the bio operator.

[HunterAlpha1]

Oic wasn’t reading that right.

[acehawk]

[quote=“KA101, post:7, topic:6125”]Shockers can and do kill folks already. Not sold on upgrading them.

snip

Hulks being able to override MA blocks (that’s how I interpreted “bypass block”) is Interesting. TKD’s bonus-blocking* and Toad Style’s armor should still work against 'em (defensive bonuses are why you take those styles), but I’d accept them pummeling through an “ordinary” block.

*As in, the additional reduction still kicks in. Where normally you’d be talking 60-70% reduction (50% + bonus), 20% v. Hulk, but still better than 0% with non-TKD.[/quote]

But shockers are very high value kills, they give you cbms. Not trying to push this one really, just a thought. I think the other special zombies need buffs more than them anyways.

And I also meant parries(weapon blocks) as well as marital arts blocks, it’s more difficult to parry something with a lot of inertia behind it, and their fists are so huge and irregularly shaped that it would be way harder to parry with a blade type weapon for instance. (The blade would get caught on the irregularities of the shape)

The styles specifically oriented around defense make perfect sense as exceptions, and it seems like there are now weapon based styles?(I think I saw something to this effect) There could be a defensive weapon style that would do this as well.

Another thought, zombie scientists seem wimpy, I killed one unarmed without taking more than a couple hits with a brand new character with no armor and 0 melee/unarmed skill. I think I might have had nail knuckles on actually, but still. He used 3 different abilities, none of which did any damage to me as far as I could tell. I killed his man hack in a single blow(after a few misses), his acid flask landed at least 3 tiles away from me, and I think he fired a mouth laser? It didn’t seem to do anything though.
Simple fix for this, make them more accurate with the acid flask and make it act like my suggestion for the spitter above (armor degradation), and make his laser weapon more accurate/more powerful. Just thought, is it a heat based attack? If not, it could instead/also heat you up significantly, causing you to slow down from overheating if you aren’t prepared to deal with the excess heat.

Also I agree, more than rudimentary, muscle memory intelligence should be limited to NPC or mutant style enemies, not zombie style enemies.

[acehawk]

I’d prefer to either not have backpacks destroyed by acid have that chance be very low because it’s very annoying to have to return to retrieve big tools I’ve left behind because my backpack broke from the acid.

I think that storage items should have an equal chance, BUT outer layer items and higher coverage items could have a higher chance, so if you had a trenchcoat or cloak over your backpack it would help protect it.

[kevin.granade]

Scientists: yea they’re pretty wimpy, and brass knuckles or similar is actually a pretty good weapon against them, they’re pretty slow, so stunlocking them is probably easy enough that it’s happening even if you miss or have low fish damage.

Heat weapon: thermal threshold exceeded! Core collapse imminent! Eject!
I think a portable heat ray would have a more potent effect by causing pain than by trying to raise your body temperature.

Protecting backpacks: as acehawk points out, the acid would hit the outermost layer first, so you can protect it by wearing something over it.

[KA101]

Re anti-vehicle birds: we need something that’s fast, avoids being crushed by players’ Weird Contraption Deathmobiles, and ideally attacks them too? BEEP BEEP [I]innocentface[/I]

Shockers aren’t quite so high-value as they used to be: I nerfed their CBM list pretty hard when I installed the bio-ops.

Weapon-blocking…hmm. WBLOCK1/2, maybe, but 3 still ought to work: it’s interposing a sewer cover or similar Shield in the way.

That mouth beam was a radiation ray. Has a chance to instant-mutate you, otherwise take about 10 rads or so, IIRC.
But yeah, I think a bodytemp-raising heat ray would be very popular: “Yeah. I don’t think you’ve got what it takes to heat me up. Oh? yeah, you do that. You use that ‘heat ray’ and you raise my body temperature. C’mon, I DARE you. Right here on z-4 in the Ice Lab. Bring it, zed scientist.”

[RAM]

I dislike the idea of “this creature is big, therefore you take a penalty to blocking” because it stops making sense if the hero is similarly ridiculous. Saying that a squirrel can’t judo-flip a human seems reasonable, saying the same of another human seems less so… In the world of mutations, bionics, powered-armour, instant drugs, and magic artefacts there seems to be the capacity for a protagonist to massively either exceed or fail human standards…

[acehawk]

I dislike the idea of “this creature is big, therefore you take a penalty to blocking” because it stops making sense if the hero is similarly ridiculous. Saying that a squirrel can’t judo-flip a human seems reasonable, saying the same of another human seems less so… In the world of mutations, bionics, powered-armour, instant drugs, and magic artefacts there seems to be the capacity for a protagonist to massively either exceed or fail human standards…

That’s why it should test against Str. That way, normal humans would be fucked, but the muscle bionic could let you negate it, or being a post threshold beast with 20+ str.