[Suggestion] More Enemies that are actually dangerous

[Malkeus]

Issue from github that’s gotten quite long with many excellent suggestions:

Highlights:

[ul]Shocker Hulks, Scarred Hulks (Slow moving armored tank beasts)
More enemies with high armor, balanced by lower health.
Large creatures getting stun resist and/or knockback resist.

Fire Zombies
Spider Buffs: Ranged attacks, better poison, tiny, hard to hit nopes with highish damage.
Expanded Fungal Monsters selection: More zombie types, fungal nether creatures, fungal ants.

Boss Monsters similar to arcane mod, seek them out for a challenge
Beavers
Zombie Lich - Hulk equivalent to masters.

Stronger jabberwock
More powerful bear, think deathclaw
Zombiefied farm animals. Run from the zombull, if you can.

Giant Worms and Grabboids overhaul, stronger faster, special attacks.
Expand monster evolution, the longer the game the harder it gets.
Put those Size tags to good use.

Alter stun code to bring big slow weapons back into par with smallish fast weapons. Fast weapons are god weapons now.
Big scary monsters give more warning they are in the area, for noping out purposes.
Make Ants dangerous. Flying ants!

Moar ranged attackers. Join the controversy. I’m for team ‘Zombie’ Gunner.
Expanded spawns for static NPC’s
’Zombies’?[/ul]

[vache]

I’d like to see more robotic enemies with ranged attacks, but not quite so deadly as the existing ones. Maybe something like basic robotic soldiers that travel in packs of 3 and fire once or twice a turn.

[Random_dragon]

Will summarize the suggestions more effectively here.

Original post (harald291):

When I have played for half a day I often find myself pretty much invincible against most enemies. Hulks are a piece of cake, hordes of zombies are no problem. Only real problem I face is the corrosive zombie. I often find myself wishing there were more really dangerous enemies. I mean enemies that makes you go "OH SHIT!" and run towards your vehicle to get the hell out of there. Addition of some new enemy that makes you shiver in your sleep? I wish this could be solved somehow. It (for me) kind of defeats the point of playing when you can walk up to one of the 'strongest' enemies in the game and slap it across the face a few times before it lay down and dies. It would be nice to have enemies that makes you want to use your .50 cals and that you REALLY don't want to aproach or even be remotely close to.

Thoughts? Ideas on what could be done?

Shocker Hulk
HP buff for Hulks
HP and Damage buff for Jabberwocks
Some buffed up variant of the feral predator
Big buff for the giant worms</blockquote>

The big idea dump by Coolthulhu:

HP buff for hulks would be OK, but it wouldn't solve the biggest problem that hulks have: The ability to stun and knockback them like small zeds, which means that even a mid-game survivor can Power Hit them into a vehicle wreck and kill them without using any weapons this way.

They should gain stun, knockback and knockdown immunity.
Same for Jabberwocks.

Jabberwocks could get a much lower cooldown on their special attack.

Additionally, huge critters could have a scaling on terrain penalty, to prevent rubble and car wreck abuse.

Feral predator variants should wait for the current predator to get nerfed a tiny bit: it needs to become escapable, so that getting spotted by one early on isn’t a guaranteed death for low level survivors.
A buffed predator variant could have the ability to pounce for free, as in #14684 and then immediately follow with an impale.

Giant worms aren’t really comparable to any of the high level zeds. They’re closer to bears.

Also, all high level enemies could gain giant buffs to armor. Monster armor is heavily underutilized right now, leading to quick weapons being much better than heavy ones.
The hulk has armor comparable to what a first day survivor can craft and wear without encumbering self above 9 on torso or legs.

My first suggestion on the issue:

Beyond that...what else? I'm sorely tempted to add my "giant cellar spider" idea I had once. Imagine a basement full of size-small nopes that trade the "bad poison" for "hard to shoot" instead.

Coolthulhu provided another idea in addition to a response:

Spiders are meaningless post early game due to their incredibly low ability to pierce high-coverage armor.

If you wanted to make spiders scary, they’d need to gain some serious attack.
For example, impale. A swarm of impaler spiders would be badass.

Harold291’s suggestions:

What about a really slow but armored hulk? Scarred hulk? Of course with a better name. Something that makes you want to throw a really big bomb at it. Or shoot at it. To me, weapons seem to be really lame atm and not really useful apart from the air guns.. [hr] @Coolthulhu Imagine.. Scarabs! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI2raWlzZxU

No but seriously, some kind of small nopes that makes you run to your flamethrower rather than your broadsword would be awesome!

What about mutated leeches in the water?

And that’s just from the first few posts.

[Noctifer]

This idea might be a bit silly but what about turrets on wheels? Patrol turrets if you will. They would not stray far from the territory they defend but would make it harder for the player to kill given they switch places constantly.

[BeerBeer]

The issue with this wish is the early game. Ok, so you’d then want more dangerous enemies down the line, several mutations later.

IMO the problem with CDDA monsters is that they’re so equally spread out. Zombies are paradoxically a homogenous group in all their diversity. You get all the random varieties everywhere. Well… almost. Ant hives are still going to contain ants. But it’s the cities. I think there are already way enough of zombie types in the cities. I personally wish some types were more localized, such as how zombie children are focused in schools or parks. The regulars, brutes, shockers, necromancers, grabbers… they’re everywhere together, making them pretty dangerous as a group, if not individually.

Ok, so maybe we wish for something like jabberwock. A rare monster that lives in the woods, but something far more dangerous and more unpredictable. A shoggoth maybe? Ever fought a shoggoth? I mean, I personally stay the hell away from them. So glad they’re only in the labs in contained rooms. And what do we want from this dangerous new beast design? What abilities should it have?

Hmm. You know, invisibility would be great. You could only see the monster in thermal. Reminds me of the Predator movies, but hey… On the other hand, then it might end being super dangerous against new characters and not dangerous enough against seasoned characters. Unless we limit the creature to certain zones that can’t be accessed by newbies. Or maybe the monster should whisper warnings while invisible before it would attack, giving new players a chance to turn back.

A water-based leviathan type monster could be great, too. It might slap creatures that come too close to water. Hard. Sending them back a dozen tiles.

Or how about a creature that becomes faster and stronger the more wounded it becomes, being super damaging below 50% hit points.

But really, what sort of danger are we looking for?

[RadaRadaRada]

I’ll shamelessly mention things I have said:

Martial arts for some of the zombies: * disarms, blocks, joint locks and throws for cop zombies * more aggressive techniques for soldier zombies

Another idea is to give most of the zombies a chance to spawn with a “weapon”, though they would lack a finesse to wield them effectively.

Some sort of SWAT zombie with crowd control items (they, mostly, use to hinder their own allies), like tear gas and sticky foam grenades. Could use it’s shield to block attacks and gunfire.

More support zombies: they buff up the surrounding zombies in various ways.

On related note, spider basements could use a large nerf, because they are just a trove of free food.

• Tone down number of spiders and egg sacks in basement. Seriously.
• (> relevant part to this discussion) Buff up the spiders: give them armor piercing attack and make their poison stack for extra pain and damage. They might remain relatively fragile.
• Black widow basement could be a rare version of general spider basement. Make their poison serious issue or even fatal depending on which body part they bit. Introduce a general anti-poison item.

[Random_dragon]

This also ties into the big point I’ve been making on there.

While we can balance the tougher monsters to be a longer-lasting threat, making them more DANGEROUS risks screwing you over in the early game. This also means that NEW dangerous monsters might be best used in niche areas, locations where the player is more likely to have intentionally sought them out.

This does two things. First, makes it less likely to be a threat to fresh characters, as towns won’t be crawling with them. Second, it avoids the “diverse horde, bland specialist monstergroups” issue by ensuring the other areas are fleshed out in and of themselves, to make them a threat in a unique way relative to city undead.

[Malkeus]

We’ve already got an evolution system in place, it’s just not being utilized very well yet. There is only one tier of monster upgrades. We could add a third or even fourth tier with truly heinous monsters in it, thereby rendering them nearly non-existent in the early game. I’m going to do s one testing with a staggered evolution setup, I’ll push the existing strong monsters into a third tier and only have weak ones in the first tier. If it works how i suspect it will, it should be kind to the early game and get progressively more difficult. I’ll report back when it’s done, n share my results fur testing.

[evilexecutive]

Here, have some Warning Texts for when a Lich is in the area.

“You feel a sudden gust of cold wind”
“A faint whisper echoes around you.”
“You feel your heart beating louder!”

When a lich aggros to the player:

“You hear screams around you in unknowable tongues!”

Various other spooky stuff. The Lich shouldn’t be outright magical, just more or less ‘spooky’. His abilities should be that he’s an overly large black skeleton(roughly the size of a hulk). He has a long-cooldown ability to upgrade other zombies, a long cooldown ability to resurrect nearby corpses, and regeneration roughly similar to that of a Mi-go. He shouldn’t be able to do anywhere near as much melee damage as a traditional hulk, that’s not his job in the horde.

The lich should be very hard to kill, and his(quite rare) presence in a horde should be quite a terrible thing to deal with. Hordes that posses the rare lich are thus considerably deadlier than any other.

The Lich is the blob’s ultimate response to survivors hunting down its Masters and Necromancers. It is truly adapted for surviving combat, unlike its predecessors.

[Malkeus]

If you put it into this format it’ll be a lot easier and more likely to get put in. I’ve provided the zombie master data as a template, go nuts

,{
“type” : “MONSTER”,
“id” : “mon_zombie_master”,
“name”: “zombie master”,
“species”:“ZOMBIE”,
“default_faction”:“zombie”,
“symbol”:“Z”,
“color”:“pink_red”,
“size”:“MEDIUM”,
“material”:“flesh”,
“diff”:16,
“aggression”:5,
“morale”:100,
“speed”:90,
“melee_skill”:5,
“melee_dice”:2,
“melee_dice_sides”:6,
“melee_cut”:0,
“dodge”:4,
“armor_bash”:2,
“armor_cut”:2,
“vision_day”:50,
“vision_night”:5,
“death_drops”: “default_zombie_death_drops”,
“hp”:180,
“death_function”:[“NORMAL”],
“special_attacks”:[[“UPGRADE”, 10]],
“description”:“Once human, its features have tightened, its lips pulled back into an unnatural grin, revealing rows of blackened teeth beneath its large, piercing eyes. It stands tall and its movements are fluid and tightly controlled. A feeling of danger permeates the air around it, and the light that falls on it seems somehow harsher and more glaring.”,
“flags”:[“SEES”, “HEARS”, “SMELLS”, “WARM”, “BASHES”, “POISON”, “NO_BREATHE”, “REVIVES”, “BONES”],
“anger_triggers”:[“HURT”, “PLAYER_CLOSE”, “PLAYER_WEAK”]
}

[pisskop]

A lot of this sounds like mods waiting to happen

[Random_dragon]

I still need to figure out some ideas for more static NPCs.

[pisskop]

I still need to figure out some ideas for more static NPCs.

Make a second floor to the refugee center. Pack it with mercs. Or the option to brute them into joining you.

[Random_dragon]

[quote=“Random_dragon, post:12, topic:11207”]I still need to figure out some ideas for more static NPCs.

Make a second floor to the refugee center. Pack it with mercs. Or the option to brute them into joining you.[/quote]

Maybe. What I’d prefer is more variety. Like the occasional survivor in farms, cabins, etc.

[Malkeus]

@random_dragon: Any progress on your end? I have to admit I’ve put the NPC project on a side burner while I learn more about coding. I keep running into stumbling blocks because I don’t know what I’m doing

[pisskop]

Just make random npcs better and use them

Statics are a problem in that they dont move without impetus. They’re hidden, stationary entities in a game of mass destructions

[Random_dragon]

@random_dragon: Any progress on your end? I have to admit I’ve put the NPC project on a side burner while I learn more about coding. I keep running into stumbling blocks because I don’t know what I’m doing

I’ve yet to make any major effort to try working on what might be needed for things like that. x.x

[quote=“pisskop, post:16, topic:11207”]Just make random npcs better and use them

Statics are a problem in that they dont move without impetus. They’re hidden, stationary entities in a game of mass destructions[/quote]

And having a looter spawn inside your base is a bigger problem, even if dynamic NPCs weren’t batshit insane.

[pisskop]

But theyd be part of a game. I want them to exist, just not in high frequency or without actual factions.

I wonder if you couldnt use the billboard to limit npc spawns on the map tile.

[harald921]

Just to get back on topic a little - how about another L4D inspired enemy - the witch? It cries so that players can avoid it, bullets passes through it but it’s rather fragile to melee attacks, it’s very fast when it’s aggresive and it has a brutal melee attack. It either sits down or wanders around aimlessly and slowly. Could be an upgrade for the skeletons? Could perhaps be more common in certain places?

[X] Possible to avoid as a new player
[X] Dangerous even to late game chars because bullets pass through it and it packs a punch
[X] Creepy messages of some(thing)one sobbing

[Malkeus]

I like this witch idea. Kind of sounds like the wraith, only effective and detectable.

{
“type” : “MONSTER”,
“id” : “mon_darkman”,
“name”: “wraith”,
“species”:“NETHER”,
“default_faction”:“nether”,
“symbol”:“S”,
“color”:“dkgray”,
“size”:“HUGE”,
“material”:“null”,
“diff”:50,
“aggression”:2,
“morale”:500,
“speed”:140,
“melee_skill”:6,
“melee_dice”:3,
“melee_dice_sides”:8,
“melee_cut”:3,
“dodge”:3,
“armor_bash”:12,
“armor_cut”:8,
“vision_day”:50,
“luminance”:6,
“death_drops”: {
“subtype”: “collection”,
"//": “50% chance of nether-level essence”,
“groups”: [
[ “essence_nether”, 50 ]
]
},
“hp”:800,
“death_function”:“DARKMAN”,
“special_attacks”:[[“DARKMAN”, 5]],
“description”:“A gigantic shadow, chaotically changing in shape and volume , two piercing orbs of light dominate what can only be described as its head.”,
“flags”:[“NOHEAD”, “HARDTOSHOOT”, “WEBWALK”, “FLIES”, “PLASTIC”, “ELECTRIC”, “ACIDPROOF”,“SUNDEATH”, “NO_BREATHE”]
}