Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance

[Tamior]

Your opinion is wrong. The lead dev has openly and clearly stated that realism is the driving force of the game.

I’d like to hear it from Kevin himself that it’s intended to work like this in this context: ranged projectile weapons getting much higher scaling with strength than melee weapon currently do.

[darktoes]

I’d like to hear it from Kevin himself that it’s intended to work like this in this context: ranged protective weapons getting much higher scaling with strength than melee weapon currently do.

Well good luck with that. Regardless, one thing being broken doesn’t mean you can’t fix something else.

[Tamior]

Well good luck with that. Regardless, one thing being broken doesn’t mean you can’t fix something else.

It’s not “one thing” “being broken”. It’s the whole weapon damage meta at large being balanced around a different baseline, including the damage enemies deal.

[darktoes]

It’s not “one thing” “being broken”. It’s the whole weapon damage meta at large being balanced around a different baseline, including the damage enemies deal.

Well then fix the melee weapon damage meta while I fix the ranged weapon meta. I look forward to your PRs.

[Tamior]

Compound greatbow vs skeletal juggernaut, by the way:

Archery 6. Marksmanship 7.

[darktoes]

Wow, that took 7 arrows. How many hits does it take with a fire axe?

[Tamior]

It took a bit more.

If you want the full fight, here is another go:
Start with 56 arrows:

End with 39 arrow 4 in-game minutes later without moving:

I can try doing it with fire axe, but my bashing is only at lvl 3 on this char.

[darktoes]

17 arrows to kill an enemy specifically designed to counter ranged weapons with the top bow seems pretty reasonable. 17 arrows is a lot, and most bows can’t even scratch those things.

EDIT: My debug character, 10 in all skills, 20 in all stats, took 12 hits to kill a jugg with a fire axe, 28 with a rapier (lots of misses) and 14 with a war hammer. Seems pretty reasonable, since I’m assuming you got mostly headshots with your bow and most of my melee attacks were critical. Seems you get a ~20-40% damage bonus with melee over equivalent muscle-powered ranged weapons. Assuming you aren’t using a rapier.

[Tamior]

Ok, same skeletal jug with a sledgehammer:

First I need to drop my bags (no need to do that with a bow):

The jug is dead also about 4 minutes later:

Except this time my char took some damage (heavy surv suit for armor). And, obviously, I wouldn’t have been able to do that as easily if there was more than one Z (bow does not care, as bow is ranged).

[darktoes]

Bow also is much harder to make than a sledgehammer, can’t be found basically anywhere like a sledgehammer, and requires arrows unlike a sledgehammer. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways, but the important output factor of both is pretty similar. And the fireaxe isn’t even the top melee weapon.

[Tamior]

Bow also is much harder to make than a sledgehammer, can’t be found basically anywhere like a sledgehammer, and requires arrows unlike a sledgehammer.

You need to have a good armor to use that sledge without taking serious damage yourself. So you really need sledge + armor to pull that, not just the sledge. It’s quite open to debate if heavy surv suit (or equivalent) is really easier to craft than compound greatbow.

There are advantages and disadvantages both ways, but the important output factor of both is pretty similar. And the fireaxe isn’t even the top melee weapon.

So you don’t see balance problem that a compound greatbow (“best” bow) takes about as long to kill the jug (a Z that should specifically be kind-of-immune to ranged weapons) as one of the best bashing weapons (something the jug is, presumably, “weak” against)? (I think sledge has the highest bashing damage of them all, so I’m not 100% sure if battleaxe or something would even deal notably more damage to skele jug).
And that’s before we even factor in that the bow can be used from complete safety of 14+ tiles away, when the melee weapon would expose you all and any special abilities the Z has?

[darktoes]

You said your character only has 3 bashing skill, it’s possible that contributed. Since your numbers don’t line up with mine I can only assume there’s differences in execution. Either way, the thing in question is damage dealt. It’s possible that this constitutes an issue, but considering the damage you were dealing, it sounds like you were just taking a long time to swing, leading to an exceptionally long time to kill. Perhaps consider increasing your other stats to improve your chance-to-hit?

Sounds like the skeletal juggernaut either has too much bash armor or, as I expect, melee damage is too low. Either way, it took a long time to kill the juggernaut with the “ideal” weapon, so I’m not too sure what to think.

This doesn’t convince me that the compound greatbow is overpowered, 17 arrows is a huge amount to bring down a single target.

[Tamior]

From what I understood, your own test with debug char gave similar results: it takes about 2-3 minutes to kill the jug with a good bashing weapon vs about 4 mins with a bow.

So somewhat faster, but that may very well change as soon as you will have to face more that one Z at a time (other Z’s may grab or knock you down, etc — not an issue if you use bow).

Also, I’m not sure what’s the significance of “17 arrows” here: you recover about 15 of those 17 back. So it only takes 2-3 of arrows in terms of ammunition used up.

And that’s vs literally the Z that the bow is at IT’S WEAKEST against. Any other Z (other than hulks) drops in 1-2 arrows. Once you factor in the time it takes to move into melee range and between targets, I’m pretty sure the bow will actually have higher or the same sustainable kills-per-minute as the best melee weapon.

So for this bow it’s the same kills-per-minute, but Z’s don’t even get to chance to retaliate (since you keep your distance) and it’s just as effective (or MORE effective) vs practically any target (corrosives, feral preds, wrestlers, bio-op’s, shockers of all types, etc,etc).

[darktoes]

It takes more shots, but you’re further away, it takes more arrows, but you get them back, it takes 18 strength but I can start with that if I make my character dumb, blind, and uncoordinated. You come up with a reason to ignore every penalty you receive for using the greatbow and then complain that it’s unbalanced. What do you expect?

As far as I can tell it seems pretty balanced considering the difficulty in crafting and the strength requirement. If it weren’t for strength being so obviously better than the other stats, there would be basically no issue here.

If you just don’t start with 18 strength, you’ll have basically no issue with it.

[Tamior]

takes 18 strength but I can start with that if I make my character dumb, blind, and uncoordinated.

That’s not how the game actually works. 4 dex / 8 int / 4 per character is neither dumb, nor blind, nor uncoordinated in any meaningful way.

If you just don’t start with 18 strength, you’ll have basically no issue with it.

“If you build your character in a way that would prevent you from using this weapon, the weapon is not overpowered”…?
Ok, got it.

Anyway, can you give me a reason to carry any weapon other than compound greatbow (with a car trunk full of extra arrows) in the late game? What kind of enemy group would it be notiably faster and safer to take down with any other weapon?

[darktoes]

That’s not how the game actually works. 4 dex / 8 int / 4 per character is neither dumb, nor blind nor uncoordinated in any meaningful way.

Fix it then. The game is unbalanced, so go make a PR making dex, per, and int more important.

Ok, got it.

There’s only one way to build your character that lets you use this weapon easily, and you still have to make it to metal forging requirements and all the skills required with a measly 4 in half of your stats. I could probably make a far more successful character with 10 in all stats than your 18 strength character.

Anyway, can you give me a reason to carry any weapon other than compound greatbow (with a car trunk full of extra arrows) in the late game? What kind of enemy group would it be notiably faster and safer to take down with any other weapon?

Most high calibre rifles have no strength requirement, fire faster, do more damage, and can be suppressed. You can find large amounts of ammunition in gunshops and armories, then convert it to whichever round you please.
A car is a far superior weapon to pretty much anything hand-held, it does massive amounts of damage, uses only electricity to run, and can easily plow through a horde in seconds. Then you can even cook with it.
Most melee weapons result in less overkill and deal overall more damage per second. Also, they don’t require you to worry about ammunition or aiming. A Nodachi with Niten Ichi Ryu does massive amounts of damage per hit, and can be used by even all-8-stat characters.
Flamethrowers deal huge amounts of damage and you can make your own diesel from plants and animal fat.
You can literally just toss some caltrops on the floor and run around it in circles with rollerblades and wipe out most hordes in an hour or so with 0 resource cost.
Unarmed combat is, by far, the most outrageously OP thing in the entire game. Even all-8-stat characters can deal huge amounts of damage with high unarmed skill and a decent martial art, and some even let you stunlock enemies or dodge an infinite amount.
The A7 laser rifle requires only UPS power to fire and easily outdamages any bow on the automatic setting, and you only need to wander down into a lab to find one.

It sounds like the greatbow is so overpowered to you because you’re focusing on it. Try making an unarmed specialist, or a melee specialist, or try one of the bionic starting scenarios, see how long it takes you to reach high combat competency compared to the 18 strength character.

[Tamior]

Fix it then. The game is unbalanced, so go make a PR making dex, per, and int more important.

You know what? Why not make those high-end bows also require some decent DEX and/or PER to use, not just raw strength?

There’s only one way to build your character that lets you use this weapon easily, and you still have to make it to metal forging requirements and all the skills required with a measly 4 in half of your stats. I could probably make a far more successful character with 10 in all stats than your 18 strength character.

Well, go ahead. Present a better stat distribution and explain why exactly it’s better (as in, give examples of in-game situations str 18 / dex 4 / int 8/ per 4 character can’t handle just as easily).

The A7 laser rifle requires only UPS power to fire and easily outdamages any bow on the automatic setting, and you only need to wander down into a lab to find one.

Does it? Can you show some test results (vs a skele jug)?

It sounds like the greatbow is so overpowered to you because you’re focusing on it. Try making an unarmed specialist, or a melee specialist, or try one of the bionic starting scenarios, see how long it takes you to reach high combat competency compared to the 18 strength character.

Melee character are pretty terrible vs specialized Z: corrosives, feral preds, shockers, etc. And that’s ignoring the fact you need decent luck with disinfectant. Otherwise you’ll just die to a random dog deep-biting you.

[darktoes]

You know what? Why not make those high-end bows also require some decent DEX and/or PER to use, not just raw strength?

Why? That seems inane, and I don’t have the skills to implement it.

Well, go ahead. Present a better stat distribution and explain why exactly it’s better (as in, give examples of in-game situations str 18 / dex 4 / int 8/ per 4 character can’t handle just as easily).

Anything involving hostile traps, reading books, any kind of melee combat where you don’t want to get hit by the enemy, at night, if you run out of arrows, a Beagle tank drone, those tasery bug robot things. You’re just ignoring huge swathes of the game because “big bow good shooty”.

Does it? Can you show some test results?

22 damage per shot, 5 shots, that’s 110 base damage per turn, and there’s no recoil so you can unload that accurately every turn.

Melee character are pretty terrible vs specialized Z: corrosives, feral preds, shockers, etc. And that’s ignoring the fact you need decent luck with disinfectant. Otherwise you’ll just die to a random dog deep-biting you.

So what this sounds like is that you’re upset stats other than strength aren’t as useful as strength. So, go make a PR.

All I’m hearing is you complaining about me fixing something that was broken.

My numbers are realistic as far as I can tell based on the systems in place. That’s the long and the short of it, and basically all I’m willing to discuss with you at this point.

[Tamior]

Why? That seems inane, and I don’t have the skills to implement it.

Why exactly having a minimal strength requirement to use a bow is ok with you, but having minimal dexterity/perception to use it is suddenly “inane”?

Anything involving hostile traps

Irrelevant, you can easily train your trapping skill to detect any trap even with 4 perception. No one forces you to go into trapped areas before that.

reading books,

What about reading books? A character with any int can read any book. It might take a bit longer, but that’s irrelevant, as you never read books when time is of essence.

any kind of melee combat where you don’t want to get hit by the enemy

Why on earth would you go into melee if you don’t want to get hit by the enemy (instead of just killing from range)?

at night

Same as above, WHY are you out at night? A single huge boomer from behind a tree/corner or couple of feral predators is all that it takes it turn a night raid into unavoidable death.

if you run out of arrows.

You run out of stamina or hitpoint as a melee build. Except with arrows you can run away when that happens, and as a melee you just die.

a Beagle tank drone,

What…? What kind of stat redistribution will help vs a tank drone?

those tasery bug robot things.

You try to melee them… why? They are much safer to take down from range.

22 damage per shot, 5 shots, that’s 110 base damage per turn, and there’s no recoil so you can unload that accurately every turn.

Armor does not apply vs laser rifle?

So what this sounds like is that you’re upset stats other than strength aren’t as useful as strength. So, go make a PR.

I just suggested to include DEX and PER as requirements for bows. You weren’t exactly thrilled.

All I’m hearing is you complaining about me fixing something that was broken.

What was “broken” about a compound greatbow?

[dissociativity]

TLDR;
The game is slightly broken towards the endgame apparnetly if you intentionally try to break it by minmaxing instead of creating an interesting, well rounded character.

Anyway, my opinion is Dex and Per below 8 should be severely punished just like my even 7 str character modeled after my very short 5’2" self is by not being able to use the normal compound bow at full strength and not being able to carry all that much, making carrying less powerful weapons and lighter armour make lots of sense.

Strength is a plain overpowered stat in general that increases HP, weapon damage, carry weight, lots of very useful things because there aren’t many downsides to having other stats particularly low.

That and perhaps your generous point awarding negative traits should be well, a bit harder to deal with.