Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance

[Tamior]

@dissociativity

TLDR;
The game is slightly broken towards the endgame apparnetly if you intentionally try to break it by minmaxing instead of creating an interesting, well rounded character.

To be fair, it’s the kind of min-maxing that does not involve any particular profession, trait, mutation or skill choices, works with multi-pool chars and is 100% contained to simple stats re-distribution. So pretty mild “min-maxing”.

@dissociativity

Anyway, my opinion is Dex and Per below 8 should be severely punished just like my even 7 str character modeled after my very short 5’2" self is by not being able to use the normal compound bow at full strength and not being able to carry all that much, making carrying less powerful weapons and lighter armour make lots of sense.

Strength is a plain overpowered stat in general that increases HP, weapon damage, carry weight, lots of very useful things because there aren’t many downsides to having other stats particularly low.

That, I agree with. My point is: until stats are “fixed”, having a high strength as a “limiting factor” for a powerful weapon is making the situation worse as far as the stat balance is concerned, and it’s a strong limiting factor in general as long as the strength requirement is within what any starting character can have.

[dissociativity]

You’re missing the point, if you try to break part of the game by making an intentionally overpowered character, it’s your own fault if you have that experience.

[darktoes]

@Tamior

Why exactly having a minimal strength requirement to use a bow is ok with you, but having minimal dexterity/perception to use it is suddenly “inane”?

Because if you aren’t strong enough you literally can’t pull the string back to make it function. Being blind or clumsy makes it less accurate (already modeled ingame), but doesn’t prevent it from functioning.

@Tamior

Irrelevant, you can easily train your trapping skill to detect any trap even with 4 perception. No one forces you to go into trapped areas before that.

Can be hard to tell if there’s a trap without seeing it, and you’re assuming you survive to reach high trap skill.

@Tamior

What about reading books? A character with any int can read any book. It might take a bit longer, but that’s irrelevant, as you never read books when time is of essence.

“taking 10 times as long to read a book isn’t a penalty”

@Tamior

Why on earth would you go into melee if you don’t want to get hit by the enemy (instead of just killing from range)?

Maybe to kill the thing?

@Tamior

Same as above, WHY are you out at night? A single huge boomer from behind a tree/corner or couple of feral predators is all that it takes it turn a night raid into unavoidable death.

laughs

@Tamior

You run out of stamina or hitpoint as a melee build. Except with arrows you can run away when that happens, and as a melee you just die.

Don’t run out of stamina then, run away before you run out. You’re assuming that the bow user understands the nuance and how to properly play in that style, while the melee user is completely incompetent.

@Tamior

What…? What kind of stat redistribution will help vs a tank drone?

The one where you can easily make a control laptop instead of being a musclebro.

@Tamior

You try to melee them… why? They are much safer to take down from range.

They can’t taser you if you smash them first with your superior dex. You’re also assuming they aren’t hiding behind a door.

@Tamior

Armor does not apply vs laser rifle?

Depends what you shoot at, obviously. Most enemies have little or no armor, for those that do there are .50 cal rifles and fusion blasters.

@Tamior

I just suggested to include DEX and PER as requirements for bows. You weren’t exactly thrilled.

There’s more to life than bows?

@Tamior

What was “broken” about a compound greatbow?

I added it in the first place, and it hasn’t been changed since. Soon I’ll change the stats to be more realistic. Archery in general was broken in that it wasn’t realistic.

@dissociativity

Anyway, my opinion is Dex and Per below 8 should be severely punished just like my even 7 str character modeled after my very short 5’2" self is by not being able to use the normal compound bow at full strength and not being able to carry all that much, making carrying less powerful weapons and lighter armour make lots of sense.

Pretty much this.

Changing the stat system to make strength less OP is going to be overall more satisfying and useful than temporarily and arbitrarily nerfing a single endgame weapon because one person has an issue with it.

@Tamior

To be fair, it’s the kind of min-maxing that does not involve any particular profession, trait, mutation or skill choices, works with multi-pool chars and is 100% contained to simple stats re-distribution. So pretty mild “min-maxing”.

How well does it work if you do a prison start? Or lab start?

[Tamior]

@dissociativity

You’re missing the point, if you try to break part of the game by making an intentionally overpowered character, it’s your own fault if you have that experience.

So you basically consider increasing you starting strength beyond, say, 12, to “break the game”?

[dissociativity]

A simple solution: A flat cap on the ability for a non-mutated human to start above a certain stat level?
No human realistically would have 18 strength no matter the training or genetics.

[darktoes]

This has all been said and discussed before. Tamior, could you just go reread what we said last time?

[Tamior]

@dissociativity

A simple solution: A flat cap on the ability for a non-mutated human to start above a certain stat level?

There is one now. At 20 points.
That’s the limit for a “normal human” right now.

@dissociativity

No human realistically would have 18 strength no matter the training or genetics.

That’s not how the actual game works. A human can have strength up to 20 without being anything special otherwise.

[dissociativity]

cut it down to 15, my highest stat on my 7 str, 8dex, 12 int, 10 per char is well, 12 with a decent assortment of both positive and negative traits, a 1 point profession and 1 point in a skill.

I can’t ever see a human being above 15 in anything considering 8 as ‘normal’ or ‘average’

how the game works can be changed, that’s the point.

[darktoes]

As you say, the limit for an unaugmented human is 20 strength, however, in the interests of balance you can’t have 20 in a stat without severe sacrifices. As it stands, those sacrifices aren’t very meaningful. Fix it so they are, and suddenly half the game will be better balanced.

[dissociativity]

alternatively this. ^
We’re aiming for realism, the bow won’t save you from hordes of enemies that you can’t run from if you’re surrounded, and your aim will be slow and unwieldy with those shit dex/per stats for any real range, so if you miss and a hulk punts you, have fun.

[dissociativity]

Like yes, you can grind your way into being good and spend like 10 real life hours doing that if you want to on a character, but if they’re good by that point it’s probably not all that unbalanced and a tank drone or chicken walker can still easily fuck you up.

If it does as much damage as some common pistol calibers, so what?
Any character with good dex+per is going to get more crits with the normal compound at longer ranges anyway.

I can’t imagine your character getting crits remotely often anywhere more than a couple of tiles away.
Especially not without spending a long time aiming with those poor stats that are tied to aiming.

[Tamior]

@dissociativity

I can’t ever see a human being above 15 in anything considering 8 as ‘normal’ or ‘average’
how the game works can be changed, that’s the point.

Why exactly is 15+ superhuman?
Instead of 20+?
15 is 73 KG of carny weight, 20 is 93 KG.
The latter does not sound that much more outlandish for an exceptionally strong human…

[dissociativity]

regardless, a good dex/per character will do double damage (crit) at longer ranges with the standard compound, with less aiming time with their normal compound at the same skill level, while having to carry a smaller, lighter bow that’s faster to wield and put away.

[Tamior]

Have you actually tested that?

[dissociativity]

nope, but game logic implies that garbage stats relating to accuracy will perform poorly at 20+ tiles away regardless of weapon.
A grazing hit with better damage is still a grazing hit.

[Tamior]

Because if you aren’t strong enough you literally can’t pull the string back to make it function. Being blind or clumsy makes it less accurate (already modeled ingame), but doesn’t prevent it from functioning.

And thus you affirm that strength is, in fact, the “limiting stat”, while all others are just “modifier stats” that can be compensated by skill, making strength the clear winner.

Can be hard to tell if there’s a trap without seeing it, and you’re assuming you survive to reach high trap skill.

Mine fields have actual signs around them. There are no other “random traps” in early game areas.

“taking 10 times as long to read a book isn’t a penalty”

Except it actually takes about twice as long. And because of how focus is used up, reading books slower actually increases you skill gain per chapter. So in the end it’s about 50-70% difference. When is that relevant, exactly?

Maybe to kill the thing?

High strength may very well allow you to one-shot it before it hits you. So it’s far from obvious you’ll have better luck with more “balanced” stats.

laughs

What, huge boomers suddenly no longer exist at night or something?

Don’t run out of stamina then, run away before you run out. You’re assuming that the bow user understands the nuance and how to properly play in that style, while the melee user is completely incompetent.

No, I don’t. But it’s a fact that you know you are running out of arrow BEFORE you are actually getting hit as bow build, while you will only know you are running out of HP/Stamina AFTER you’ve already engaged (and, likely, taken some damage/pain) as a melee build.

The one where you can easily make a control laptop instead of being a musclebro.

Having int 8 in no way prevents you from making or using a control laptop.

They can’t taser you if you smash them first with your superior dex. You’re also assuming they aren’t hiding behind a door.

They can’t taser you if you smash them first with your superior strength. And your ability to run away depends on neither strength nor dexterity. (well, apart from the fact that with low str pain can easily make you overloaded and unable to run fast)

There’s more to life than bows?

Why not start making other stats relevant again by adding them to the bow as an actual requirement for proper use? Surely a bow is much more demanding for good coordination than a rifle is?

[Tamior]

@dissociativity

nope, but game logic implies that garbage stats relating to accuracy will perform poorly at 20+ tiles away regardless of weapon.
A grazing hit with better damage is still a grazing hit.

Sadly, not how the game works.
A 4 dex 4 per char has no problem landing head-shots 20 tiles away with a bow.

[crazykiddeath]

Have you tried using this way of character building to min max another character types?
You all but say melee sucks but with the right combination of traits you can make some pretty powerful day one melee builds, an example for this would be the quick/parkor/fleetfooted/indefatigable spear user for instance, add in rollerskates and you are basically unkillable.

[Tamior]

Anyway, I don’t think anyone disagrees that stats are poorly balanced with strength being the clear winner.

My point is, I’m not sure that under these circumstances it’s good for the meta of the game to add a super-bow under the assumption that str 18 is enough of a limiting factor — all the while said bow follows a higher str-to-damage conversion ratio that melee weapon do (effectively putting it on par damage-wise with high caliber rifles).
Both of these factors literally only buff the strength further.

[Tamior]

@crazykiddeath

Have you tried using this way of character building to min max another character types?
You all but say melee sucks but with the right combination of traits you can make some pretty powerful day one melee builds, an example for this would be the quick/parkor/fleetfooted/indefatigable spear user for instance, add in rollerskates and you are basically unkillable.

No other character type (I can think of) will be as reliable in my opinion, because other character builds still leave you at the mercy of RNG:
a single deep bite and no disinfectant = death for melee
bad RNG for ammo generation = dead-end for firearms-based ranged

This archetype is sustainable pretty much irregardless of RNG — it only relies on things that can be found in any forest + a vehicle wreck.
Compound greatbow is just the (overpowered) cherry on top that propels it into the stratosphere. It’s quite capable even with an (auto-learned) longbow + composite crossbow.

also:

quick/parkor/fleetfooted/indefatigable spear user

Still benefits from 18 str / 4 dex / 8 int/ 4 per. Maybe even more so than a bow user. The problems will come once you face advanced Z’s. Corrosives, shocker, feral preds, etc.