Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance

[John_Candlebury]

I m sorry but there’s at least 11 centuries of human history that contradict you here.

Sure an arrow shot might not be intermediately fatal, but the same is true of lots of gunshot wounds. Trust me I’m an architect

[Hof1993]

so…in other words you have never shot a bow.

[Hof1993]

i have 27 years of bow hunting experience. In that time…i have never one shot killed a deer. Keep building houses.

[John_Candlebury]

You literally only have to search “bow hunting” to verify that you can one shot kill a deer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZCGBgH63M

A single arrow, and looks pretty dead to me.

[TheMurderUnicorn]

Hof, you old.

Also, I thought the point of bows was that they caused wounds that encouraged bleeding.

[Hof1993]

Wow…a video…one video. Shot of the week. Cool.

[Hof1993]

thats the same point of 50 cal slugs fine sir.

[darktoes]

It’s been empirically proven that bows can and will fuck you up. I think it’s quite safe to say that they can be quite effective in CDDA. One metric I always like to bring up is that high poundage compound bows are rated to hunt pretty much anything, up to and including elephants, while even something like 5.56 is rated to deer.

Perhaps you’re not using a very high poundage bow? Maybe you have some sort of source to support what you’re saying?

[Leosky]

As bullets. To one-shot larger game with a rifle and normal ammo require to hit a vital organ in the same way you need with a bow. Bullets are not very much more lethal than bows for humans (about 20%) but they incapacity rate is way higher due to higher neural shock.

What make bow so hard to use to hunt is mostly you need to be way closer to shot for a less likely chance to at least incapacitate. But they break bones and destroy organes as surly as bullets, the main difference beside neural shock si the bleeding is reduced by the arrow as long as it stay in the wound.

[Tamior]

I’ve finally found a book with advanced bows and crossbows.
Compound bow is super-strong (definitely no need to buff it, I 1-2 shot most Z’s with it), but not completely unreasonable.
Compound crossbow also feels about right.
Normal greatbow feels fine as well (lower crafting requirements and available in lower-tier books, but needs high strength).
However, COMPOUND GREATBOW is insanely overpowered at 40 base damage.
It has practically twice the damage of both normal greatbow or normal compound bow and ZERO drawbacks. (Yes, str 18 to use is still not an actual drawback — it’s a viable starting stat value for any character without any mutations or CBM’s.) This thing essentially makes high-caliber rifles pale in comparison.

P. S. Also, compound bow can be accurized with firearms repair kit. That’s not intended, right?

[darktoes]

Don’t start that again. It’s difficult to craft and takes a lot of strength. That’s reasonable balance. You could do a lot more damage with 18 strength and an equivalent melee weapon. It does get adjusted slightly in my oncoming PR though.

Yes it’s intended, at least until I add a bow kit.

My usual metric for justifying bow damages is that there are a number of reported and documented cases of killing elephants with 80lb compound bows, whereas the greatbow in the game is around 180lbs. The minimum recommended gun cartridge for killing elephants reliably (based on a cursory google) is .375 H&H Magnum, which under the current system would do around 75 base damage.

Also, at what point in the game are you making this? If you can make one I can only assume you have plentiful access to far better options, like high calibre rifles. It’s also worth noting that equivalent melee weapons (I used a halberd for testing) did about twice as much damage as the compound greatbow at 18 strength.

[dissociativity]

Keep in mind a character with 18 strength will need to abuse drugs to properly read a majority of books due to low intelligence, likely get horrifying addictions in the process, and let’s not forget the likely pathetic perception and dexterity involved to minmax that level of strength.
Perhaps dex and perception need an inverse buff (anything below 8 is pretty shit), strength is already pretty garbage below 8.

[crazykiddeath]

Are you taking into account mutations and CBMs?

[Tamior]

Keep in mind a character with 18 strength will need to abuse drugs to properly read a majority of books due to low intelligence, likely get horrifying addictions in the process, and let’s not forget the likely pathetic perception and dexterity involved to minmax that level of strength.
Perhaps dex and perception need an inverse buff (anything below 8 is pretty shit), strength is already pretty garbage below 8.

Ok, this character, right here.
Multi-pool char, all the default char generation rules.

Please tell me what exactly is this character supposed to have trouble doing due to “low stats”?

[Tamior]

Are you taking into account mutations and CBMs?

It’s largely irreverent. 18 strength is a viable starting value without sacrificing anything important.

[crazykiddeath]

True but my point is even without sacrifices of some type you can hit 18 str without too much trouble.

[Tamior]

I agree. My point is, it does not involve ANY real sacrifices even without taking any CBM’s or mutations into account:
18 str
4 dex
8 int
4 per

Please tell me, people who think that 18 str is somehow “rare and hard to play”, what exactly this character has “sacrificed” (in terms of actual gameplay, not just “on the paper”)?

[crazykiddeath]

Your vision range in the dark and dodge, both of those can be mitigated in some manner though. If you are maining ranged then dodge isn’t really an issue and night vision can be made up for with gear.

[Tamior]

Exactly my point.
Dodge is irrelevant if you don’t go melee (a good idea for a dozen of reason anyway).
And nightvision can be compensated by:

1. starting with nightvision CBM (3 or 4 professions have that).
2. using a flashlight (also reveals shady Z’s and nightstalker’s)
3. using nightvision equipment
4. not going out at night (a fantastic idea anyway, as a couple of feral predators can turn you into swiss cheese within minutes even with 10+ of night vision range)

[crazykiddeath]

They would come under the heading of “sacrifices of some type” and CBMs, My point is that you can STILL get 18 str without even making those sacrifices.