Bites seem WAY imbalanced at the moment [too common for their danger]

[xpyder]

I have a new character (bionic monster with melee 5, dodge 3) and I’ve been dance fighting and trying to avoid zombies where I can, and out of about 25 zombies I’ve had at least 10 deep bites.

I agree that they were way too infrequent before, and I don’t mind them being more common… IF we have some way to deal with them. Not some way to make them trivial, but a way to trade off risk (like using alcohol to disinfect, making the wound take days to heal but having a high probability of removing the 85% chance to kill you every single bite)

[xpyder]

Also I’ve tried cauterizing, and I don’t know if it was rebalanced but it seems to be much less than 50% chance. with 2 attempts each time it seems to be closer to 20-25% chance to disinfect combined. Maybe this could be changed to have a higher chance to remove the lethal infection and replace it with a disease. That way you still have risk but not nearly automatic death

[xpyder]

and if that isn’t enough of a balance, then maybe make the second cauterize reliably (maybe 90%?) cure the infection but guarantee the limb goes to 0 hit points forcing you to do a splint heal.

And if the infection lethality was rebalanced to match the new [much] higher infection rate, then I take it all back, I’m still operating on the wiki info that at base health a survivor has only a 15% chance to survive a deep bite

[ItzStone]

Everytime i cauterized it worked, guess the rng isnt in your favor, but other then that, disinfectant, first aid kits, and peroxide all clean wounds. So until you find those i suggest getting a ranged weapon or a melee with a reach attack. You can make first aid at a pretty low first aid level as well.

[kevin.granade]

Deep bites are intended to be a “suspended death sentence”. They’re the main thing that makes fights with ordinary zombies dangerous and consume resources instead of being a trivial matter of managing DPS. As such they’re exactly as deadly as we want them to be.

We are looking into making lone zombies a bit less dangerous by having a bite attack from an ordinary zombie require a grab attack first, which should allow you to pretty reliably break free of the grab from a single zombie before it has a chance to bite you.

[TheZoneWizard]

Well bite yourself until it hurts and then stop. If you think about it you are not biting very hard. Not even as hard as you would a tender steak. So the fact that a humanoid is trying with all they can to literally eat you…yeah it seems normal. But as for grabbing you first. This does make more sense. I cannot really think of how you could get bitten without being grabbed. I suppose if a zom fell towards you and you didn’t notice, they could possibly bite down on you…but it seems rather unlikely. I’d put that into a category of 10% chance out of the grab = 90%

[bookofguns]

Wait cant you just use the adjesenty bonus they have for taking down walls to also calculate a higher or lower chance for a bite from the less?

Edit: have yet to read fully up on how regular zeds are being modifed at the current moment sorry

[TheZoneWizard]

What do you mean? Why would a zom grabbing you be related to walls? They just bash stuff normally until they get through. But how does this “Grab” the player toon?

[kevin.granade]

See some plans here https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/projects/13

tl;dr

• Zombies getting stuck on spears, either as a side effect of an attack or as a counterattack.
• Require an established grab before a zombie bite attack can succeed
• Groups of zombie get a “rend” attack where they pull on their target from all directions, this would bypass armor (not power armor though)

The rend attack is what I came up with based on what @bookofguns suggested.

[TheZoneWizard]

Cool idea Kevin. Would getting stuck on a spear be programmed similar to the player characters “Grab” function? As in, holding the long weapon and the zom gets stuck on the the end of it. Technically speaking the player should be able to drag the zom around. Either to shake the bastard off or to gain an advantage by blocking a doorway/passage/felled wall etc. Up until the zom gets torn apart by the other mobs trying to get through

Could you use the Rend concept with the tailor aspect of making your clothing tough? Making items tough would allow the zoms a more difficult job ripping the character apart. =)

[kevin.granade]

Technically speaking the player should be able to drag the zom around. Either to shake the bastard off or to gain an advantage by blocking a doorway/passage/felled wall etc.

Moving a stuck zombie around is a different feature that I probably won’t add at the same time as this kind of thing. You’ll certainly be able to try and get your weapon unstuck though, either that or drop it.

Could you use the Rend concept with the tailor aspect of making your clothing tough? Making items tough would allow the zoms a more difficult job ripping the character apart. =)

No, the whole point is they aren’t tearing at the clothes, they’re grabbing your limbs and pulling, nothing short of power armor is going to have an impact on that.

[TheZoneWizard]

Ah…clothing a no go…hmm. But what about the fact that you have to tear your clothing to do more than heavy bruising?

I mean, your arm won’t come off if you wear long sleave. Hurt like hell? Yeah, more than likely. But bash damage at best and if you are full health it won’t break unless its like 45% HP. Depending on whether or not you scale the zoms to pull ratio >_>

[bookofguns]

Wait is it possible for bite piercing damage be turned into bludgeon damage if your clothing is hard enough. Still cause the damage and maybe clothing damage but turn what would be a deep bite into shit my clothes and own my arm.

[kevin.granade]

I mean, your arm won’t come off if you wear long sleave.

Sure it will, plenty to make it not work as an arm anymore at least, plus some eventually-lethal bleeding and such.

Plus you seem to be assuming just one pull, this is a horde of probably 10+ zombies grabbing and pulling over several minutes. Sure maybe the first pull “just” bruises you and wrenches your shoulder, a later one might dislocate your arm, but then another zombie gets a grip and pulls again, maybe some tearing. Repeat enough times and you end up scattered all over the place.

Wait is it possible for bite piercing damage be turned into bludgeon damage if your clothing is hard enough.

Possible sure, but that’s not what I’m talking about here.

[bookofguns]

Being pulled apart by a hoard sounds…FUN

[TheZoneWizard]

Perhaps. But I mean. It would be scaled right? If you bypass armor entirely with this method you need to scale it against the armor/clothing. Try pulling apart a chainmail jerkin, I don’t care if you have 30 zoms yanking you. You would be bashed all to hell yes. I agree completely. But torn asunder? Meh, not likely mate. Heck adding the tailor toughen buff and weave in some cloth is unlikely to take you apart.

Bash damage though. I thought(albeit a great idea) that if slash got absorbed, wouldn’t it convert SOME to bash? If I get a halberd slice my chest. Sure the armor was good enough(just pretend) to not CUT me. That bash is going to seriously ruin my day 0_0

[kevin.granade]

Try pulling apart a chainmail jerkin, I don’t care if you have 30 zoms yanking you. You would be bashed all to hell yes. I agree completely. But torn asunder? Meh, not likely mate.

Take a dummy, cover it in chainmail, while only grabbing through the chainmail can you:

• Break Fingers?
• Break Arms?
• Break Legs?
• Snap the Neck?

The answer to all of the above is yes, use some imagination. If your limbs are free to move, they’re free to be broken.

[Aabbcc]

No, the whole point is they aren’t tearing at the clothes, they’re grabbing your limbs and pulling, nothing short of power armor is going to have an impact on that.

Wouldn’t high strength have an impact on that? and by extention, mutations? The huge bearmorph with stupid amounts of strength is going to have an easier time shrugging off the zombies doing this than a regular joe. Might even be strong enough to hurl away zombies in response if strong enough.

How about a slime? From their grabs slipping away due to slimy skin to the effects of the more extreme end of the mutation.

On a much lower scale, the bendy line that elves also get might help reduce the damage by being flexible enough that the zombies aren’t dislocating your limbs. Perhaps not enough to make up for the reduced strength from the mutation, but it shouldn’t be as bad as the full str penaly from said mutation.

[kevin.granade]

Read the link I posted.

[Aabbcc]

Read the link I posted.

Hadn’t checked earlier since opening git on my cellphone is more miss than hit.

Anyhow, it does make it a strength check, but there’s still room for mutations like those of the slime line, or to somehow add the ability for specific items to help there beyond hard coding power armor, like, I don’t know, covering yourself in cooking oil or something.