Archery redesign?

[Cosmitz]

nikky>Tripling or even a bit more than that the time to fire will allow that bear to get much closer before you even get to nock your second arrow. Think that you’re allowed to move three times less than shooting with the current bow reload time, and also you get fewer chances to hit. Also, as they stand in that chart, they’re still under the 35-40 range for rifles with 31 max for the Warbow if you get up to 24 str somehow, with having a lot more dispersion than them and thus a chance to miss, and damage wise i think they’re in the sweet spot considering the damage is spread over 250-400 mps instead of the 80-100 that they were initially. (really, strongest bow in the game atm fires faster than all other bows)

Sean>As for compound bows, they require the same strenght to draw irl but its applied differently. “Composite” bows are misrepresented, and they don’t make much sense since most of all modern bows are of composite materials. Either way, the progression in the game was really off and hard to understand even for people that know archery.

secretfire>A zipgun is extremely easy to produce, as is a selfbow, but in only one case do you also have to make the projectile itself, which is 70% of the equation. As said, a random simple bowlike thing is easy to make, as are arrows, but they will be far from the tools that will nail you A4 pages at 30 meters and more akin to hitting a chair at five. You will have the strenght to knock it over though if you hit.

As for the shortbow angle, see the chart, for easy understanding gave up on it since people make the assumption that shortbows are ‘weaker’ or the ‘shittier’ cousins to larger bows and wanted to avoid confusion. For reference, a smaller bow can put out the same amount of force as a larger bow, but it’s much harder to shoot it since you have to bend a smaller stick more at a more extreme angle than just bending a larger stick less. Benefits mostly involve the reduced size and more maneuvering, that’s why they were preferred for mounted combat.

[PoeSalesman]

Right now, my STR9/DEX11/PER9 can drop a bear in 9-12 fletched field points, with a shortbow at only 3 Archery. Usually this happens before the bear gets even close. Somehow despite my Animal Discord perk, the bear (and wolves) don’t move directly at me when attacked but rather waste time moving somewhat random.

I don’t see how that’s overpowered, that’s a little underpowered if anything when a dinky little .22 will probably drop a bear in 3-4 shots at the same skill level. Not like dinky .22 bullets are all that rare either.

[Cosmitz]

Had a look over the code, and while i can somewhat make heads and tails of it (found the bit for the extra range from STRx_DRAW, and while i could work on that and remodel it for what i need, i have no idea where to add the damage boost from strength), if someone can give me a hand with it, i can totally write up the jsons up to spec this weekend and start up a full debugging session for finetuning and balancing.

Yeah, i /really/ like my bows.

[Garm]

Can we also add siege longbows to the list with 200+lbs draw using legs XD ?

AFAIK Chinese used these. Absolutely horrible aim, but much larger arrows - nearly javelins.

[kevin.granade]

Pretty new here, and after a lot of successful deaths i decided to finally set up a mini-me template. Had to bump traits to 13 points to get them in, and i assumed 8 strenght was the average human strenght. Edited a json to add in a custom profession with hand-picked items but i got extremely stumped at one thing, which led me down into the jsons again.

Glad you found it and decided to stick around

[quote=“Cosmitz, post:1, topic:5611”]Taking it from the top:

• Before anything else, split crossbows from bows. Keep the crossbows as a “rifle” or if nothing else, split it into its own skill. Bows stay under archery.[/quote]
  Bows -> archery
  slingshot -> archery (already there I think)
  crossbows -> rifle
  pistol crossbow -> handgun
  In general, the skill should be about how you handle it, not what it is. Many of the other weapons could stand to be recategorized as well, but the bows are the worst.

- Split the fletching/bolt-arrow making from archery and merge it into Fabrication.

Crap, I thought this had happened already.

[quote=“Cosmitz, post:1, topic:5611”]- Range. Really. Read till the end, heavy focus on ammo.

• Bows vs crossbows. From a game design perspective, bows should be the ‘on the go’ high skill high reward item. Bows should keep their initial STR requirement but also have “STR_DAMAGE” scale as the crossbows have a “STR_RELOAD” scaling. Crossbows should be able to be used by any strenght level, but have the “STR_RELOAD” scale massively here.[/quote]
  No disagreement there

[quote=“Cosmitz, post:1, topic:5611”]- Different draw weights per bow. See below.

Basically the crossbows will become easier to use through tiny bit smaller dispersion and synergy with another large branch but at a large cost to weight and volume and a dedication to strenght if you want to close in on bow reload/shooting speed. Bows are a lot harder to get into, having a minimum strenght requirement, but will shoot faster, and the potential for a large amount of damage is high if you dedicate into strenght more than the minimum requirement. (for the archers out there, we’ll asume over-drawing does not harm the bow)[/quote]
More than the minimum, but still capped I assume.

[quote=“Cosmitz, post:1, topic:5611”]- Bow types. Four types of bows are enough. Self bows, Recurve bows, Compound bows and Shortbows. Let’s go in for a quick tour:

Short bows - High strenght req, scales damage on strenght. Most compact, doesn’t come in light draw weights. Endgame.
Recurve bows - Medium strenght req, scales damage on strenght. Middle of the road choice.
Compound bows - Medium strenght req, bit less than Recurves. Doesn’t scale damage on strenght. Does fixed unscaling damage, but requires less strenght than the recurves.
Self bows - Low strenght req, doesn’t scale damage on strenght. DIY plastic/wood bows. Starting equipment.[/quote]
No issues here either.

[quote=“Cosmitz, post:1, topic:5611”]To note, i’m considering medium-strenght to being 6. Though how someone who’s sub-average can carry a 37 kg load is beyond me. That’s how much trained military infantry-men carry in PT. That’s another rant for another time.

The twist comes now. Bows come in draw weights which dictate damage and range. This bugged me to no end when i realised the options ingame. Basically you could find/make “Self bow 10lbs” or “Self bow 20lbs”, each outputting more damage and getting more range the ‘heavier’ the bow is to pull. For comparison, an untrained male adult will find 20 pounds easy to pull, 40 pounds will be a bit of a muscle flex but not hard, 60 is a real push but can be done with training and a developed musculature and 80 is dedicated for strong and/or trained people. For fun we can have one or two ‘unique’ 100 pound bows but they’re unreasonable. The shittiest selfbow should be shootable even at 3 or 4 strenght while the 80lb shortbow will need around 12 strenght. Crossbows can follow the same design for draw weights.

If anyone says ‘it will be to complicated!’, i remind you the amount of guns we already have in the game and for someone that barely knows his USP 45 from his Sig 9mm, it might just as well be one and the same.

You might be thinking this is OP and from what i’ve read around here, there have been issues with archery being OP before. One of the things about archery is that in order for anyone to be able to hit a proper target at even 15-20 meters, they need GOOD arrows. You can’t just cut a twig up or hammer some scrap metal and make an arrow or a bolt.

We have guns for reliable/predictable damage. Crossbows and bows should be the ones that require a heap of investment in both material/manufacturing and skill level to pull off. A bit of a high-risk, high-reward kind of mechanic combined with a large enough reload time to rival a pistol reload. Sure you can pretty much fire unfletched lenghts of tube, and for crossbows, that’s a better deal initially that in bows, but when you have a properly fletched arrow shaft, only then can you expect to do those huge-damage silent critical headshots from 40 meters.

The actual fletching seems mostly fine, but i’d put a MUCH larger difference in stats, and i’d actually like to have a few dedicated tools needed for superior products: a sandgrinder and some fletching posts, plus more need for superglue in recipies.

Anyhow, this was my little rant/suggestion box. It’s way late here but i might make an excel with some bowstats tomorrow.[/quote]
I don’t see anything to take exception to here, and as people can attest, that’s pretty rare
I really appreciate the thought you’ve put into this and am looking forward to seeing more.

[Zireael]

I already said I like the thinking here.

[jimboblordofeskimos]

[quote=“Garm, post:24, topic:5611”]Can we also add siege longbows to the list with 200+lbs draw using legs XD ?

AFAIK Chinese used these. Absolutely horrible aim, but much larger arrows - nearly javelins.[/quote]

English used longbows with a draw of up to 180lbs on frenchmen on a regular basis, no need for leg draw with a large modern human.

[Cosmitz]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:25, topic:5611”]I don’t see anything to take exception to here, and as people can attest, that’s pretty rare
I really appreciate the thought you’ve put into this and am looking forward to seeing more.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply. Fresh eyes are invaluable on any project that has gone on for long enough.

- Bows vs crossbows. From a game design perspective, bows should be the 'on the go' high skill high reward item. Bows should keep their initial STR requirement but also have "STR_DAMAGE" scale as the crossbows have a "STR_RELOAD" scaling. Crossbows should be able to be used by any strenght level, but have the "STR_RELOAD" scale massively here.

No disagreement there

Indeed, might retry my hand at it, but the last thing i really coded was Pascal a few years ago, and while i can understand C code give or take, i still have to wrap my head around the expressions. Not to mention CDDA’s coding structure. Also i’ve trawled around and i don’t see any design documents.

More than the minimum, but still capped I assume.

See the chart i posted above, maximum of 100% more strenght required for a 50% boost. Balances out and seems simple enough to understand.

[Natures_Witness]

I’ve actually been thinking about trying to add more accessories for bows and I would love to hear your thoughts on some of my ideas and how to balance them. Here’s what I have so far:

1 - Red-dot sight and pin sight; goes in sight slot, reduce dispersion, add weight
2 - Bow stabilizer (basically a counterweight); goes in accessory slot, reduce dispersion, add weight and volume
3 - Peep sight; goes in mechanism slot, reduce dispersion, no downside, even simple bows can mount this
4 - Open arrow rest; goes in grip slot, reduces reload time, increases dispersion
5 - Drop-away arrow rest; goes in grip slot, reduces dispersion, increases reload time

I don’t have much experience with bows, so I could really use the advice on these.

[Cosmitz]

Personally i’d not add anything until the system is a stable platform, just so we don’t shoot ourselves in the leg, but i’ll advise.

1. Totally plausible and can work with existing items, for simplicity’s sake we can say normal red-dots work as well on rifles as on bows. Though only modern bows should have slots. No longbow/warbow/shortbow with slots.
2. Huge amounts of volume, fully serious, stabilizers add a lot of bulk
3. While applicable, i think we might be going a bit too far into archery-nerdgasm territory. We need to make this playable and easy to understand, gameplay trumps lore.
4. Actually due to bow dynamics open arrow rest can be as beneficial as a modern arrow rest. Though same point as 3.
5. See 3.

[Natures_Witness]

Thanks for the comments, I agree it’s best to wait on these until the general bow revamp is done. Also, are peep sights that uncommon? I have a compound bow I bought at a yard sale (unfortunately I live in town and don’t have anywhere to practice with it) and it came with a peep sight, pin sight, and a seven arrow quiver that mounts on the bow. I just figured that stuff was common on modern bows.

On a related note, I also have an old Wham-O Powermaster crossbow that I also found at a yard sale. Do you have any idea what size and type of bolts I should use with it? I’d kinda like to give it a try, but it didn’t come with any bolts.

[Foffy123]

[quote=“Cosmitz, post:23, topic:5611”]Had a look over the code, and while i can somewhat make heads and tails of it (found the bit for the extra range from STRx_DRAW, and while i could work on that and remodel it for what i need, i have no idea where to add the damage boost from strength), if someone can give me a hand with it, i can totally write up the jsons up to spec this weekend and start up a full debugging session for finetuning and balancing.

Yeah, i /really/ like my bows. :)[/quote]
I’ll take a look at what’s needed for the STR damage modifier, I’ll let you know if I make any headway.

[Cosmitz]

I worked and finished on the range effect. It was a simple(not really) matter of understanding and reverse engineering the existing range buff. Here’s the code, duplicated for all the strenght flags, of course embedded in else ifs as it was originally:

if (has_flag("STR4_BOW") && p) { if (p->str_cur >= 8) { ret = curammo->range + dynamic_cast<it_gun*>(type)->range + dynamic_cast<it_gun*>(type)->range * 0.5;} if (p->str_cur < 8) { ret = curammo->range + dynamic_cast<it_gun*>(type)->range + (dynamic_cast<it_gun*>(type)->range*((p->str_cur-4)/4)/2);}

Excuse the dirty code, i’m extremely rusty and before i started this i never actually compiled in C++. So far so good. A run-through would be: If the bow has the STR4_BOW flag, if player’s strenght is greater or equal to 8, as in 100% more, total range becomes ammo range plus bow range plus 50% of bow range. If the player’s strenght is under 8, total range becomes ammo range plus bow range plus MATHMAGIC that pretty much says how much ‘extra’ range after the requirement in percentage, then divides it by two, so you get the max 50% bonus and not 100% bonus.

I’ll take a look at what’s needed for the STR damage modifier, I’ll let you know if I make any headway.

Have to find if its still in the item.cpp or somewhere else, but i think it should be there. Will look and reverse engineer something from another item if it exists, if not, from zero. Though to be fair the exact same formula can be used for damage, making it trivial. Once that’s down, i think i can start on the Jsons.

Later edit: Oh hai, i found out what .h files are used for. Awesome.

Later edit2: As far as i understand, i need to if flag under int item::gun_damage. Though ret -= damage * 2; just makes me go ‘wut?’. Either way,i assume all ret changes have to happen before that, so inserting the if there.

[quote=“Natures Witness, post:31, topic:5611”]Also, are peep sights that uncommon? I have a compound bow I bought at a yard sale (unfortunately I live in town and don’t have anywhere to practice with it) and it came with a peep sight, pin sight, and a seven arrow quiver that mounts on the bow. I just figured that stuff was common on modern bows.
On a related note, I also have an old Wham-O Powermaster crossbow that I also found at a yard sale. Do you have any idea what size and type of bolts I should use with it? I’d kinda like to give it a try, but it didn’t come with any bolts.[/quote]

Not uncommon-uncommon, depends on the group you’re rolling with. A lot of people like ‘plain’ bows, and also a lot pimp them out to no end. Compound bows in particular are considered the ‘tacticool’ equivalent of the gun world. We have a joke around here that compound bow shooters also have a foldable chair hidden in their pants so they can totally take that perfect shot wherever. So yes, compound bows will generally come with a LOT of extra shit on them. As for the bolt recomandations, as it can be seen, while i’ve been around bows, crossbows have an almost total different, if simpler, physics and mechanics behind them. Start searching for bolts for your crossbow shelf lenght and for your poundage. Carbon seems to be the to-go material in terms of crossbows.

[Natures_Witness]

Thanks for the advice, I’ll see what I can find. The tricky part with the crossbow is it’s a fairly odd one; it’s fairly old, and has a low draw strength (for a crossbow). They were made by the same people who invented the frisbee, and are basically the archery equivalent of a BB-gun, only a LOT more hazardous.

[Cosmitz]

Solved for damage i think, will test tomorrow:

if (has_flag("STR4_BOW") &&p ) { if (p->str_cur >= 8) { ret = curammo->damage + dynamic_cast<it_gun*>(type)->dmg_bonus + dynamic_cast<it_gun*>(type)->dmg_bonus * 0.5;} if (p->str_cur < 8) { ret = curammo->damage + dynamic_cast<it_gun*>(type)->dmg_bonus + (dynamic_cast<it_gun*>(type)->dmg_bonus*((p->str_cur-4)/4)/2);}

Had to declare the player *p function in the resource file to use in int item::gun_damage, and then add it to the existing one, insert the whole bow snippet right before the ubiquitous ret -= damage * 2 and i think that really should be it.

+1 C++ programming skill.

LE: Fuck sleeping.

Tested, surprisingly works. Didn’t get a proper bead on wether extra damage is applied correctly but seemed like it.

Aside from that, also focused on re-instating strenght requirements. It was also amazing how easy it was to find the Str REQ for bows, in game.cpp. Replaced, ofcourse commented my changes like a good little codemonkey and then edited the Archery description to account for the changes.

A few things bug me. I need to see what archery as a skill /ACTUALLY/ does. Since at 0 you can pwn everything. Also, see if i can tweak criticals. Way too often. Still, i /love/ the long wait time. You really can’t just spam attack. That zombie dog can cross 8 tiles instead of the usual 1/2 before you fire off a shot.

Also, i’ll take a look at RELOAD_AND_FIRE. Might be hard and out of my reach, but i want to have a ‘refresh’ before letting go of the arrow. So a monster can close/get in one more attack during your drawing period, and only after that can you release and fire. Will prevent ‘sniping’ and having ‘a free shot’.

Later edit: Archery itself seems to do almost nothing gameplay-wise? As it stands bows are insane even at 0 skill and that’s just wrong.

LaterLateredit: Jesus. At skill 8 it takes 20!!! to fire a bow? Holy shit. Sure at 0 it’s 220, and i think the bow listed ‘reload time’ just adds on top of that, but really, bow reload speed should really not be part of the equation. With the new reload timer and seeing i was shooting at 520 movement points, i think i’ll tweak it around this number, in either way, reload time for skill maybe in a tiny role, but for simplicity’s sake, i’d rather just not and work with dispersion for skill. Either way, have yet to throw an eyeball in how criticals are rolled, but off to sleep for now, 6AM is 6AM.

[Cam]

I’d suggest changing the name ‘Short bow’ to ‘Long bow’ in this model and ‘Self bow’ to ‘Improvised bow’. A self bow just means you made it yourself - it could be a crappy greenwood survival bow or bundle bow or PVC bow or it might be a masterpiece of craftsmanship. I think ‘Improvised bow’ sums up the low end nature of this bow in the proposed food chain better than ‘Self bow’ does. Other than those name changes, the suggestions look good.

As an extension I’d also simplify the choice of arrows for crafting - mainly by varying the point. Currently you have to create shafts, then have to use that to make a eg. fire hardened arrow and then use that to create a fletched arrow! I’d say - just allow people to create a whole fletched arrow from scratch and allow different tip types (thus any arrow needs a shaft and some sort of fletching material (eg. duct tape, feathers)). As an archer and novice bushcrafter in real life I can tell you most people aren’t goinging to be creating fletchless arrows for anything, they’d create the finished item. The tips could well vary though - you could have fire hardened, flint knapped, and improvised broadheads (eg. hammered flat teaspoon or improvised point made from sliced up sheet metal via hacksaw or tin snips) or even bodkins (old style armor piercing points which might be handy against bots, and armored/thick-hide enemies).

A proposed arrow sequence could be (skills wise all coming off a combo of archery and either surival or fabrication) -

Fire-hardened point arrow
Stone-head point arrow
Metal Field point arrow
Metal Broadhead point arrow
Armor piercing Metal Bodkin arrow (Fabrication only)

Followed by two ‘special’ types that we can just asume are more powerful and not worry about the points):

Aluminium arrow (Fabrication only)
Carbon Fiber arrow (Fabrication only)

Also, bump arrow damage back up - it used to be good but I am finding it takes an insane amount of arrows to drop anything but the most basic Zombie even with 5+ archery (think I got as high as 8 and it still wasn’t that great), a compound or long bow, and Dex/Perception 12. The only exception to this is currently when I use Carbon fiber arrows and they are hard to come by - basically I don’t feel bows are that useful as they currently stand, at their current damage level.

My suggestions anyhow.

[Zireael]

I like the improvised bow rename.

[Binky]

[quote=“Cam, post:36, topic:5611”]I’d suggest changing the name ‘Short bow’ to ‘Long bow’ in this model and ‘Self bow’ to ‘Improvised bow’.
As an extension I’d also simplify the choice of arrows for crafting

Also, bump arrow damage back up - it used to be good but I am finding it takes an insane amount of arrows to drop anything but the most basic Zombie even with 5+ archery (think I got as high as 8 and it still wasn’t that great), a compound or long bow, and Dex/Perception 12. The only exception to this is currently when I use Carbon fiber arrows and they are hard to come by - basically I don’t feel bows are that useful as they currently stand, at their current damage level.[/quote]

I agree that improvised bow makes a lot more sense. I always thought ‘self bow’ was a bit of a strange title and doesn’t really describe it well. I Also second making crafting arrows more simple/an all in one job. It’d help reduce tedium quite a bit, and it’s rather needless.

However, I don’t agree with buffing archery back up. Arrows are in almost infinite supply and make no noise - two huge advantages over guns. Before someone jumps in with videos of arrows penetrating steel walls and whatever - fun/balance sometimes has to come above realism, and I think this is one such case, as otherwise archery will nearly always be preferable.

If damage must go up, then arrows should be considerably more difficult to make, or have other penalties - we already kind of have this with carbon fibre arrows, and possibly a better gradient between weak arrows and good ones could be made.
The reload in one turn and shoot in another helps this, but I’d still think it’s overpowered if damage went back up. Granted, by level 10 you should be able to fell most things with an arrow, but perhaps the arrows need a

[Cosmitz]

I like the improvised bow rename.

Names can be changed and sure, i guess Improvised bow works better for sake of clarity. We can leave ‘self bow’ in the flavor description text.

Also, bump arrow damage back up - it used to be good but I am finding it takes an insane amount of arrows to drop anything but the most basic Zombie even with 5+ archery (think I got as high as 8 and it still wasn't that great),

Damage has to come up, obligatory.

Archery only raises reload speed from what i’ve seen, and even that it caps at 8. Needs a major rehaul. As said, i’d like dispersion to be a huge part of this, and even if i’m to keep the reload speed bonus, to keep it small.

fun/balance sometimes has to come above realism, and I think this is one such case, as otherwise archery will nearly always be preferable.

If damage must go up, then arrows should be considerably more difficult to make

I am not making this rehaul for the sake of OPing archery. Trust me, balance is in good hands. As a wide thought, i want archery to seat in between assault rifles and pistols as range with a higher point-value for damage, but with a higher chance to miss mostly and a much-increased reload time. That ‘action-before-firing’ needs to happen to get this to where i want it. Maybe you can take that shot at 17 tiles, but do you /WANT/ to? After you’ve finished firing, and if you missed, that monster will be at 10 tiles. It would have been better to wait for it to close to 13 tiles so you got a better shot off. Or maybe you fire even sooner, but use your target arrows for a better chance to hit but lower damage. Something along these lines. Make archery actually /fun/ and interesting instead of f-f-f-f-hey-he’sdead-pickuparrows-butcher-next.

And yes, i want fabrication to be harder and more difficult. Will tweak recipies so you have a large chance to fail making one arrow out of a 2by4, since that really is a hard feat, and yes, you make one arrow. As it currently stands that i can leave the shelter with 100 broadhead wood arrows… hah, no.

[FunsizeNinja123]

Damn… I really like how the bow redesign is coming along!

Not sure how it’ll effect my bow chars, but I like it!111!