Archery Expansion First Version Out

Game Talk The Lab
81

Looks awesome overall, thanks for your work on this.

Teensy quibble, the item descriptions shouldn’t reference each other, the description needs to just report the physical characteristics of the item along with some impressions the character might have about it.

So for the bows with increasing draw weight, the description needs to indicate the increasing difficulty of using it without refrerencing each other.

“This is a bow with a very weak draw, it’s only suitable for learning to shoot.”
“This is a bow with a moderate draw, the pull is easy and fast, but range and damage are limited.”
“This is a bow with an average draw, most people should be able to use it, and it has decent range and damage.”
“This is a bow with a heavy draw, you’ll need to be stronger than average to use it, but you’ll be rewarded with higher range and damage than with lesser bows.”

Etc, I’m not saying use these as they are, but I think that gives you the idea.

82

Congratulations all. Looks very nice. About the only suggestion I can make is to rework some of the item descriptions but that’s just personal preference.
Also how important is the bow-like object? Seems more of a joke item than anything usable, unless you can craft it with 0 skill in archery then it should be pretty useful. you’ll have to forgive me I’ve not read through the thread that thoroughly.

An arrow with foils at the end of the shaft to stabalize it during flight.\n\ This arrow is much more accurate, and can travel further without twisting in the air,\n\ allowing for far more accuracy.",

Also is this correct? I was under the assumption fletched arrows imparting twist would increase the accuracy, not decrease it.
Then again, I’ve only used a bow a few times in my life so I’ve not exactly had ample time to study arrow flight mechanics.

83

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:81, topic:837”]Looks awesome overall, thanks for your work on this.

Teensy quibble, the item descriptions shouldn’t reference each other[/quote]

Note taken, it was one of my main concerns about the descriptions before hand too.

Do you have any suggestions, or any suggestions about what not to do?

Also how important is the bow-like object? Seems more of a joke item than anything usable, unless you can craft it with 0 skill in archery then it should be pretty useful. you'll have to forgive me I've not read through the thread that thoroughly.

Sort of. With no archery skill or knowledge at all, this item wouldn’t be terribly useful but it would be enough to train up your archery skill to 1 to make a proper, albeit weak, bow.

With no archery skill, it pretty much seals whatever chances the character has of crafting a functional bow. I didn’t want to preclude the option of them trying anyway though.

Also is this correct? I was under the assumption fletched arrows imparting twist would increase the accuracy, not decrease it. Then again, I've only used a bow a few times in my life so I've not exactly had ample time to study arrow flight mechanics.

It’a bit of a miscommunication on my part, by twisting I mean twisting in all 3 axis.

[quote=“Tripsky, post:80, topic:837”]hi all - been watching this thread intently - good work to all involved.
i personally really hope that an archery expansion makes it into the game. my character uses his longbow almost exclusively (except on those pesky armoured foes) - so to have some more variety in game would be fantastic! keep up the good work, it’s highly appreciated by myself at the very least! ahem, i know this was mentioned in another thread, any thoughts on quivers?[/quote]

I don’t really know what to do with the quivers if I put them in. Arrows at the moment don’t cost much volume, only weight. I’m not that all against quivers just giving you more volume, but I’m not all that much against you putting stuff other than arrows in it either. It would just act as another piece of volume centred clothing.

Edit: Would referencing draw weights of modern bows fit in the description?

Edit 2: Updated the descriptions.

Bow-like_object: “description”: “An object that looks like a bow from afar, but closer inspection will reveal its masquerading nature. This is a bow someone with absolutely no knowledge of bows would make. Solely based on popular depictions from movies and video games, this object merely tries to look and act like a bow, nothing more.”,
Nothing much changed there.

10kg: “description”: “Made using the most rudimentary knowledge of bows, this short and weak bow is just enough to take down small game in a shot or two.”,

20kg: “description”: “A bow with a semi-powerful draw. Its relatively low draw weight gives a good draw speed, as well as precision for lack of strain on the user when the bow is fully drawn.”,

30kg: “description”: “With a draw weight slightly above what professional users use, this bow can take down medium game, and even large game with enough skill.”,

30kg compound: “description”: “A bow that uses a set of pulleys to take the strain off the user when a bow is fully drawn to provide better accuracy. This does not mean however that the draw weight on these must be less than a bow with similar draw weight.”,

40kg: “description”: “A bow with a draw strength rarely seen in use. The bow’s power is akin to those of big game hunters in the safari. However, due to its draw weight, the draw time is slower and the strain of the draw hinders accuracy.”,

50kg: “description”: “Among the most distinctive things about this bow are the curled arms that turn away from the archer at the ends. Due to high workmanship, the high draw weight is much more efficiently transferred into throwing the arrow. The strain does however put a great deal of strain onto the user, lowering both accuracy and rate of fire.”,

65kg: “description”: “The massive frame of this weapon belies its monstrous power and a draw weight at the edge of human capability. The immense strain that this bow puts on the user comes at the drastic cost of accuracy and rate of fire, but the power and range rewarded is unparalleled.”,

84

Sorry I lost track of this, I’m kind of bad at forum-ing (I was redirected to it by the other archery mod thread).

I’ll do a more thorough review of this soon, and likely will be pulling it into the main repo immediately.

85

Ooh, shiny. That’d be pretty cool.

86

I was half way done with moving the arrow data into the json format, but I’ve been getting distracted with modding starsector at the moment :o.

Think I will finish it off tonight if it’s going into github.

87

Flare, I’ve already moved the arrow data to JSON. I’m just trying to get GIT to put your name on the commit :confused:

88

Oh wow, thanks dude 8)!

If the naming issue is a matter of credit, don’t worry about it. I don’t need any credit for it. If I can do anything to help, give me a shout.

89

I demand you add flare/torch arrows!

90

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:84, topic:837”]Sorry I lost track of this, I’m kind of bad at forum-ing (I was redirected to it by the other archery mod thread).

I’ll do a more thorough review of this soon, and likely will be pulling it into the main repo immediately.[/quote]

If it’s going to be merged then shouldn’t bows weight and volume be changed and some dmg,range and reload?

40kg, 50kg and 65kg dmg,reload and range is imbalanced for a bow now if it was a crossbow then it’s a different story.

91

Imbalanced in that they are over powered, under powered, or a mixture of both?

Made the bows to be like that under the suggestion that I make the end game bows similar to that of a weak single shot rifle. With the proper arrows, it should be up to par, though in my experience you’ll hardly ever make end tier arrows in abundance.

92

weight and volume needs to match descriptions a 65kg bow weighing 9 weight is just wrong (after all it’s massive right?), reload time for 50kg and 65kg needs to be increased as they become bigger and harder to pull at their reload rates it doesn’t affect unskilled users at all.
65kg bow if it’s size is that of a hand held ballista (isn’t gonna be possible to pull by normal human str unless with some mechanical aid which will increase reload time)

40kg bow range reduce it by 2
50kg bow range reduce it by 2
65kg bow range reduce it to 25 range and damage set it to 20 dmg and add 10 recoil to simulate strain of pulling such a large bow and tension power.

and the arrow ranges for tipped and prepped lowered by 1 you can add 2 dmg for the special arrows instead

more importantly this will really need a review from devs if it’s gonna be put in mainline as comparing a weak end game rifle the dmg should not exceed 36 total with arrow combined anything past that and you’ve just beaten a gun without any heavy penalties

93

Personally I don’t think range is much of an issue, I could always taper its effectiveness at range by drastically upping the accuracy penalty to mimic the impact of the strain that such a large draw weight puts on the user.

A lower range of 2 isn’t really that much of an impact I find anyway, the range bonus from the arrows more than make up for it, anything around 20 range and you likely won’t notice the difference.

Not too big on the idea of putting recoil on bow usage, I’d rather up the reload time even higher.

One important thing I’m not too sure how to incorporate is whether archery skill would seep into any of these bow and arrow item stats. Pulling a bow isn’t entirely about raw strength, there is a great deal of technique to magnify what strength you already have and tricks to minimize the fatigue. It’s kinda like boxing: A person starting out is going to tire out much faster than a someone who is trained. It’s not entirely about fitness, but rather the subtle movements that the body learns to makes that achieve the same effect without wasting all that much energy.

One very important area I find isn’t the amount of damage these bows do, but the armor penetration that they seem to have on higher end bows. Late era quality medieval plate was impervious to pretty much everything but very powerful crossbows. Most knights that can afford it can walk through a storm of arrows (their steeds were another matter). I’ve shot robots that are supposedly supposed to be used in law enforcement and must have had some sort of bullet protection on them other than kevlar. Even with the mid-range metal arrows you can take them down with the 40kg bow without much of a fuss. I’m not sure whether this is because the penetration is over powered, or whether the robots need a bit more armor at this point.

94

well the 65kg as I imagine it would be massively large as to said description referencing a hand held ballista of sort hence if I somehow pull that thing there will be a tension recoil caused by it. (Upping the reload is a good balance to very powerful bows like for example you can’t fire more than 2-3 arrows for the 65kg bow in a minute) as to enemies in the game I find their hp too small and armor plating doesn’t stop penetration so no matter how high a natural armor they have they will always die from penetration.

Unless monsters suddenly gain penetration armor a robot can be killed by a simple pointed stick which is unrealistic…

95

Yes the physical exertion of using a bow isn’t something I’ve found a good way to communicate in the game yet. I’ve not yet come up with any ideas how to manipulate the stats to accurately represent it in game yet.

In any case, there is a way that the problem can be mitigated. I eschewed the type of bow it is because of my current understanding that different types of bows and their different materials can usually be much more resistant than any human can pull it. I’m not sure that all the different bows have the same draw limitations until they break or needs to change into another more efficient bow, but I am quite sure that the limit is likely far above that of what a human can practically use. The lack of any solid description about the bow is mainly to avoid discussion about which type of bow is best, or give an indication about which type of bow is better than another.

That being said, I do imagine that the higher end game bows do make use of modern materials and mechanical means to ease the use of the bow, though that should probably show in the recipes :o.

In regards to armor penetration, I would think that man-made armor plating on robots ought to be far tougher than what they have now. Nature can be amazing, I’m sure, but human made military or law-enforcement armor plating is seriously something else, at least far more than what the zombie soldiers have.

96

[quote=“Flare, post:91, topic:837”]Imbalanced in that they are over powered, under powered, or a mixture of both?

Made the bows to be like that under the suggestion that I make the end game bows similar to that of a weak single shot rifle. With the proper arrows, it should be up to par, though in my experience you’ll hardly ever make end tier arrows in abundance.[/quote]

Just so I understand this: the bow I invest a substantial amount of time/Focus/resources* in crafting…is being designed as comparable to…a .22LR?

*Including the New! Improved! multi-step, separately-headed & fletched arrows. :-/

Why shouldn’t I just grab a .22LR?

97

[quote=“KA101, post:96, topic:837”][quote=“Flare, post:91, topic:837”]Imbalanced in that they are over powered, under powered, or a mixture of both?

Made the bows to be like that under the suggestion that I make the end game bows similar to that of a weak single shot rifle. With the proper arrows, it should be up to par, though in my experience you’ll hardly ever make end tier arrows in abundance.[/quote]

Just so I understand this: the bow I invest a substantial amount of time/Focus/resources* in crafting…is being designed as comparable to…a .22LR?

*Including the New! Improved! multi-step, separately-headed & fletched arrows. :-/

Why shouldn’t I just grab a .22LR?[/quote]

.22 LR dmg 11 is really low, for the dmg of low end game riffle ammo that is 36 dmg I was referring to is .223/.308 rounds.

Bows and most crossbows being low dmg and low rate of fire is what seperates them from guns with limited ammo. after all it wouldn’t be fair if bows/crossbows can shoot out 50 raw dmg without critting per shot and fire 4-6 times in a minute.

98

apparently these arrows got merged in that is still wonky in terms of usage like for example the exploding arrow still re-usable I am working on fixing bugs appearing on the commit.