The aim rebalance I’ve been working on for about a month now is nearing completion, we’ll need people to try it out and see what they think, I’ll post again once it lands.
For now here’s a preview of the updated aiming menu (click through to see detail, this is kind of a terrible image host):
I like that it shows a percentage to hit. Any ETA on merge?
Needs aim cost displayed somewhere - as in, moves/seconds to reach
Are the percentages to hit the actual hit chances?
Or is it just an approximation based on player skill/perception.
Yes, as it says in the PR.
[quote=“John Candlebury, post:4, topic:14257”]Are the percentages to hit the actual hit chances?
Or is it just an approximation based on player skill/perception.[/quote]
It’s an approximation.
[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:5, topic:14257”][quote=“John Candlebury, post:4, topic:14257”]Are the percentages to hit the actual hit chances?
Or is it just an approximation based on player skill/perception.[/quote]
It’s an approximation.[/quote]
What’s the inaccuracy of this display when your relevant skill is 0 and your perception is 8?
+/-10% ,20% more?
[quote=“John Candlebury, post:6, topic:14257”][quote=“Kevin Granade, post:5, topic:14257”][quote=“John Candlebury, post:4, topic:14257”]Are the percentages to hit the actual hit chances?
Or is it just an approximation based on player skill/perception.[/quote]
It’s an approximation.[/quote]
What’s the inaccuracy of this display when your relevant skill is 0 and your perception is 8?
+/-10% ,20% more?[/quote]
I was unclear, it’s an approximation of the dispersion curve, it’s unchanged and calculated in src/ranged.cpp in the confidence_estimate() method, see https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/21468/files
The image isn’t good enough for me to comment on the UI, but at first glance it looks a little bulkier than it needs to be. What I THINK I see in the images is:
Normal Shot+±–
Careful Shot
*++±-----
etc.
a to aim
f to fire
c for careful aim
p for precise aim
What I would like to see is much more condensed:
(time cost) (*crit + hit - graze _miss change)"f"ire ( 70) ±—
"c"areful (140) **++±----
"p"recise (360) ******+++++±---------
"a"im manually (+50)
[quote=“RedPine, post:8, topic:14257”]The image isn’t good enough for me to comment on the UI, but at first glance it looks a little bulkier than it needs to be. What I THINK I see in the images is:
Normal Shot+±–
Careful Shot
*++±-----
etc.
a to aim
f to fire
c for careful aim
p for precise aim
What I would like to see is much more condensed:
(time cost) (*crit + hit - graze _miss change)[/quote]"f"ire ( 70) ±—
"c"areful (140) **++±----
"p"recise (360) ******+++++±---------
"a"im manually (+50)
Nice idea. Just it is better to do in next PR.
I like information, and as long as it fits in the sidebar, It seems it should be a welcomed addition for my tastes! The image is too blurry to make out any words for me in the pics, though unfortunately.
Also Kevin planned to reduse accuracy to the close range shooting ( closer than 4 tiled). It caused a lot of discussions. So, was it implemented?
Fairly certain that the current rebalance basically just triples accuracy. There are plans to eventually make guns ineffective at melee range, which is incredibly stupid (unless I’m misunderstanding and it only happens when you’re being grabbed) but that shouldn’t be implemented yet.
Fairly certain that the current rebalance basically just triples accuracy. There are plans to eventually make guns ineffective at melee range, which is incredibly stupid (unless I’m misunderstanding and it only happens when you’re being grabbed) but that shouldn’t be implemented yet.[/quote]
Yes. He already aswered that reduction will be minor. Nothing massive. At least for now. So it is false alarm.
But he need to be watched anyway 
Idea itself is fine. Just his world about 3 tiles frigten me. 3 tiles is not exacly close range.
Also light weapons with short barrel (like pistols and SMG) should be almost unaffected from this future nerf.
There’s no specific nerf to short range accuracy, what got a heavy nerf was firing without aiming, whereas overall accuracy got a massive buff. Additionally aim speed is totally overhauled, it’s very fast to aim just a little bit, but aiming well enough for distant shots gets progressively slower.
In my testing, trying to shoot in melee is extremely risky, because you’ll frequently get hit in melee before you can aim well, especially with more than one opponent nearby. Run and gun also got a heavy nerf, because your aim gets reset every time you move, so you need a tile or two of space to give you time to steady your aim.
[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:14, topic:14257”]There’s no specific nerf to short range accuracy, what got a heavy nerf was firing without aiming, whereas overall accuracy got a massive buff. Additionally aim speed is totally overhauled, it’s very fast to aim just a little bit, but aiming well enough for distant shots gets progressively slower.
In my testing, trying to shoot in melee is extremely risky, because you’ll frequently get hit in melee before you can aim well, especially with more than one opponent nearby. Run and gun also got a heavy nerf, because your aim gets reset every time you move, so you need a tile or two of space to give you time to steady your aim.[/quote]
Are shotguns and pistols still usable in that case? They already close range. So if you need to aim carefully to hit with pistol upclose then I don’t know why do I need pistiols. Shotguns - becuse of damage. But pistols…
Secondary do you test that case:
Are player still can kill 5 zombie dogs with smg? Or at least one of them. This things move exremely fast so it will be near you quicly and you won’t outrun them after that.
And last: Don’t we coming to situation then bashing enemy with pistol or shotgun upclose much more effective than shoot it? Especially if we take in account run and gun nerf?
Also gun aim drops than player getting hit. Do you take it into account?
Your best bet is to try it out for yourself instead of asking me about it. Me describing it isn’t going to really nswer your questions.
Ok. Then let’s just wait. I except we are wating for Coolthulhu because only he can test it before merge properly.
Landed, give it a try in the latest experimental and drop your feedback here.
Feedback from me:
I’ll start with the negatives:
[ul][li]The tests were significantly relaxed from what I proposed. This means that this change only addresses the problem of guns being too weak, not unbalanced in general.[/li]
[li]The old (pre-“huge nerf, Feinstein mode, squirtgun firearms” era old) tactics still apply: drop the pistols and SMGs as soon as you find a rifle. Pistols got that aim speed boost, but SMGs got nothing over rifles. The only reasons to use a SMG would be that you barely started and need to kill something dangerous, or are trying to mini-snipe from the darkness using cheaper ammo - you certainly don’t want to end up with your SMG skill at 5+ level unless you’re playing with that GrindToStats mod.[/li]
[li]The nerf to MAX_RECOIL/quickdraw is almost completely needless. Maybe if it was special cased for rifles it could work, but for pistols and shotguns it is just another reason to drop them and use a rifle.[/li]
[li]Dexterity got completely needless role in dispersion calculations, as if it wasn’t good enough already. Perception again pushed back into dump stat, as dexterity is strictly better than perception for ranged combat now. Yes, even for snipers.[/li]
[li]Change to aim speed formula means that you generally can afford to aim to near full. Combined with the above it means you generally HAVE to aim to near full.[/li]
[li]Accuracy is all estimates. “Lies, damn lies, and statistics”[/li][/ul]
tl;dr Rifles uber alles
It is a step in the right direction, though. Not a leap, but it’s not tragic like it was between the revert and this rebalance, and it is backed up by tests.
What I liked:
[ul][li]Marksmanship nerfed. Granted, the nerf comes from rounding down 10/3 to 3, but still. Marksmanship is grindy, benefits from grinding are design smell.[/li]
[li]Lower cap of 45 dispersion (effectively 135 in displayed dispersion) on all guns, no matter the mods and accurization. This doesn’t affect pistols and most SMGs, but does affect many rifles. It also means less christmas tree guns. It’s not displayed anywhere, so you (any player reading this) will be glad you are reading my post and not just trusting the numbers that didn’t come from me. I’ll report that lack of display in a moment.[/li]
[li]Aim time shown. The ones in moves (and not seconds) are actual numbers and not estimates and thus you can actually trust them.[/li]
[li]The “even chance of good hit” display allows you to actually see if you got worse or better. It isn’t trustworthy when comparing near-equal cases, but works for more distant ones.[/li][/ul]
The UI is good. Displays all the relevant information - maybe not as densely as I’d like, but everything’s there. Personally, I would put the hotkeys for each aim type in the same spot the aim is listed, instead of down below like it is now. That would free up a lot of space, and make things feel a lot less cluttered. That’s a relatively minor nitpick though.
I only did a quick test, so I can’t comment much on the balance. Guns are definitely usable, though the usual drawbacks of ammo and noise still apply. I will say that the new aim formula HEAVILY encourages using precise aim only, even with pistols at 1-4 tiles (marksmanship 5, pistols 2, all stats at 8).