Is maximum range even a sensible attribute within current ranged weapons system?

[Tamior]

The more I look at it, and the more it seems like maximum range on ranged weapons is just utterly nonsensical attribute to have.

No projectile just magically STOPS at a certain range, and it’s even more stupid you can’t start or keep aiming at a target unless/if it moves one extra tile in an open field.

But more importantly — current dispersion mechanic already provides for a sensible way to limit effective range without any of the above issues.

So why not just remove maximum range from all ranged weapons (and adjust dispersion where necessary)?

[Coolthulhu]

It would be, if dispersion wasn’t broken right now.

Maximum range offers a good way of telling apart accurate pistols from accurate rifles. And accurate rifles from accurate shotguns.
Without maximum range, the entire “shotguns” skill would be obsolete, as shotguns would be just rifles.

That said, merging shotgun and rifle skills would not be a bad idea in itself. It’s pretty terrible design to have 7 ranged skills with variety enough for 3.

[Tamior]

It would be, if dispersion wasn’t broken right now.

How so? For bows at least it seems to be working reasonably ok — you can’t hit targets with longbow at maximum range without making a ton of missed shots.

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:2, topic:13979”]Maximum range offers a good way of telling apart accurate pistols from accurate rifles. And accurate rifles from accurate shotguns.
Without maximum range, the entire “shotguns” skill would be obsolete, as shotguns would be just rifles.

That said, merging shotgun and rifle skills would not be a bad idea in itself. It’s pretty terrible design to have 7 ranged skills with variety enough for 3.[/quote]
While we are at it, I’d say archery, firearms and throwing + marksmanship should cover most ranged weapons in the game just fine.

[nick0010]

I dont know about condensing all guns into firearms. Firing a handgun is pretty different from firing a rifle, and aiming with a rifle is way different from aiming a grenade launcher. I can see condensing them to small and large weapons vis a vis fallout 3, but that seems a bit too simplified for my taste.

[Tamior]

I dont know about condensing all guns into firearms. Firing a handgun is pretty different from firing a rifle, and aiming with a rifle is way different from aiming a grenade launcher. I can see condensing them to small and large weapons vis a vis fallout 3, but that seems a bit too simplified for my taste.

I agree, but so is firing a hunting rifle at a deer very different from firing assault rifle in close quarters.

[Coolthulhu]

How so? For bows at least it seems to be working reasonably ok — you can’t hit targets with longbow at maximum range without making a ton of missed shots.

It scales way too hard, making it useless unless you spend entire seasons training it. But once you get enough, it becomes accurate enough to do neurosurgery with.
At low levels, you’ll be grazing more than a ruminant. It’s faster to kill things by whacking them with the gun.

I dont know about condensing all guns into firearms. Firing a handgun is pretty different from firing a rifle, and aiming with a rifle is way different from aiming a grenade launcher. I can see condensing them to small and large weapons vis a vis fallout 3, but that seems a bit too simplified for my taste.

At the moment we have it set up in such a way that firing a SMG has as much in common with firing a rifle as it has with firing a bow. And firing a hunting rifle has as much in common with firing a shotgun as with firing a flamethrower.
Excessive detail in one place only shows lack of detail in others.
And then there are edge cases, such as repeater crossbow and sling, which fire unlike any existing category in the game.
Melee has a similar problem, where chopping things with an axe and slicing them with a katana use the same skill.

I’d see it as 3: small guns, big guns, launchers. Launchers would cover everything that is expected to arc.

[Alec_White]

I’d see it as 3: small guns, big guns, launchers. Launchers would cover everything that is expected to arc.

So like Fallout’s abstraction of skills?

PR it now please. I want it.

[Tamior]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:6, topic:13979”]It scales way too hard, making it useless unless you spend entire seasons training it. But once you get enough, it becomes accurate enough to do neurosurgery with.
At low levels, you’ll be grazing more than a ruminant. It’s faster to kill things by whacking them with the gun.[/quote]
Wait-wait-wait, if we are to remove maximum range, how would it effect the low-skilled usage when it’s difficult to hit even at point plank?

I’d see it as 3: small guns, big guns, launchers. Launchers would cover everything that is expected to arc.

Archery is still separate?
Do crossbows go into guns? (Crossbows are more similar to guns in terms of how you aim/fire them than bows to be honest)

[Coolthulhu]

Wait-wait-wait, if we are to remove maximum range, how would it effect the low-skilled usage when it’s difficult to hit even at point plank?

It wouldn’t, it would only affect the high skill levels. But the high levels would get worse because of it, so it’s not a good idea to remove max ranges.

Archery is still separate?

I’d bunch it with launchers.
Probably won’t happen, though. There are many things that are easy to add to DDA, but elegance, good design and order aren’t on the list.

[Tamior]

It wouldn’t, it would only affect the high skill levels. But the high levels would get worse because of it, so it’s not a good idea to remove max ranges.

Get worse … how?

[Coolthulhu]

Get worse … how?

This:

It scales way too hard, making it useless unless you spend entire seasons training it. But once you get enough, it becomes accurate enough to do neurosurgery with.

If there were no max ranges, accurate pistol in hands of accurate character would allow shooting things on the other side of reality bubble just like with a sniper rifle. This would make sniper rifles and slug shotguns identical at higher levels.

[Tamior]

If there were no max ranges, accurate pistol in hands of accurate character would allow shooting things on the other side of reality bubble just like with a sniper rifle. This would make sniper rifles and slug shotguns identical at higher levels.

What skill level are we talking about here? 5? 10? 15?
I mean, anything level 10+ is pretty much late-game. And in late game the balance gets out of the window wholesale: handguns being usable at “rifle” ranges would not be a huge game-changer at all — not in the least because you already have ALL kinds of weapon available by late game anyway.
Plus, if my experience with bows is any indicator, even at archery 10 / marksmanship 8 you can’t reliably hit things at maximum range with reflex recurve bow.

I mean, what is the problem exactly? Sure, with a good handgun at skill level 10 you would be able to hit as far as with a good rifle with rifle skill at 5. But rifles would still out-range handguns (or shotguns, or whatever with higher dispersion) at the same skill level. And by the time you are hitting things at the reality bubble edge with a handgun 50% of the time you would have been able to score head-shots at that distance with a rifle.
Rifles just need to have lower dispersion, and you will ALWAYS hit better than with anything with high dispersion.

[tarburst98]

main reason for max range is to emulate velocity drop, which is the real killer for range. large, heavy, and aerodynamic bullets maintain velocity better, and thus can hit further targets with near full power. a handgun’s tiny bullets shed velocity quickly regardless of the initial speed from the powder. this means they work fine at short range but after shedding enough speed they start to wobble and that slows them down even more and ruins their damage capacity.

[TooDAMNMuch]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:2, topic:13979”]It would be, if dispersion wasn’t broken right now.

Maximum range offers a good way of telling apart accurate pistols from accurate rifles. And accurate rifles from accurate shotguns.
Without maximum range, the entire “shotguns” skill would be obsolete, as shotguns would be just rifles.

That said, merging shotgun and rifle skills would not be a bad idea in itself. It’s pretty terrible design to have 7 ranged skills with variety enough for 3.[/quote]

umm… shotguns are just rifles though, if you use the right ammo, slugs are accurate as all fuck.

also rifles and SMGs are cluster fucked together? why?
i mean, sure some SMGs are good at range, but let’s be honest with ourselves here, if you want full automatic you use an SMG, if you want to vaporize anything about 5-8ft in front of you you use a mac 10 in .45 flavor, you won’t hit anything but the ground at range with that though.

[kevin.granade]

Tarburst is correct about the underlying rationale, the max range is an attempt to model different guns having different effective ranges based on velocity loss due to aur resistance.

Does this need to be a hard cap on range? No, it could be an effect that causes accuracy and damage to drop past the effective range, but as Coolthulu pointed out, we need some effect to handle the situation where a gun is extremely accurate at short ranges, but loses effectiveness at range for various aerodynamic reasons.

[Tamior]

Tarburst is correct about the underlying rationale, the max range is an attempt to model different guns having different effective ranges based on velocity loss due to aur resistance.

I’d argue that the way it works now creates more problems than it solves.

1. Fixed max range prevents you from AIMING at targets out of it even if you just want to steady the shot and fire when the target IS within range.
2. Reduced accuracy at range (due to dispersion) already creates something very similar to velocity drop (i.e. average damage is reduced with range), fixed max range just literally introduces a situation where projectiles can go from full energy and 0 energy within a single map tile.
3. Do we even need to model velocity drop given that reality bubble is something like 50-100 meters in radius?

I mean, thing about it this way:

• for a combination of weapon and skill where you can’t really hit at max range removing that max range will not make it viable at longer ranges — dispersion already limits your effective range before max range does
• for a combination of weapon and skill where you CAN really hit at max range — max range works not as a “velocity drop” thing, but as a magic wall that completely prevents you from targeting and firing once your target crosses it even by an inch.

Does this need to be a hard cap on range? No, it could be an effect that causes accuracy and damage to drop past the effective range, but as Coolthulu pointed out, we need some effect to handle the situation where a gun is extremely accurate at short ranges, but loses effectiveness at range for various aerodynamic reasons.

Is dispersion mechanic not exactly that? An effect that makes various weapons lose effectiveness with range at different rate?

[tarburst98]

the other problem is you can, with the right setup, have 0 dispersion. which if there is no max range lets you shoot literally forever.

[Tamior]

the other problem is you can, with the right setup, have 0 dispersion. which if there is no max range lets you shoot literally forever.

You are still limited to your reality bubble and line of sight.
And many weapons already have max range longer than visible reality bubble.

I mean, heavy rail rifle is already auto-learn recipe with 60+ max range.

And, again, if you have a 0 dispersion weapon the “magic wall of max range” makes it WORSE since now an inch of extra distance makes a sure-fire hit suddenly impossible to even fire.

P.S. That being said, no weapon should be allowed to have 0 dispersion if you ask me.

P.P.S. Can you give a couple of examples of these “0 dispersion weapons”?

[tarburst98]

Barrett rifle with .50 BMG

[Tamior]

Barrett rifle with .50 BMG

A weapon with 45+ max range that would not be effected by abolishing max range much, if at all.