6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game

[Random_dragon]

I’ve seen this same statement a number of times, but I’ve never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now. This makes it difficult to discuss.

Funny, I’ve seen a lot of assorted complaints about some of the changes, and a lot of explanations for why any given feature doesn’t belong in the game, or why a given feature fails at whatever objective it obstinately accomplishes, be it pointless realism or unwarranted (even redundant) gameplay changes.

[kevin.granade]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:440, topic:12504”]I’ve seen this same statement a number of times, but I’ve never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now. This makes it difficult to discuss.

Funny, I’ve seen a lot of assorted complaints about some of the changes, and a lot of explanations for why any given feature doesn’t belong in the game, or why a given feature fails at whatever objective it obstinately accomplishes, be it pointless realism or unwarranted (even redundant) gameplay changes.[/quote]
Good job completely missing the point as usual.
Was I talking about “assorted complaints”? Was I talking about “(objections to) a given feature”? No I wasn’t, but I guess you don’t care since you have an axe to grind.

[Weyrling]

Funny, I’ve seen a lot of assorted complaints about some of the changes, and a lot of explanations for why any given feature doesn’t belong in the game, or why a given feature fails at whatever objective it obstinately accomplishes, be it pointless realism or unwarranted (even redundant) gameplay changes.

I’ve also seen a lot of people complaining that particular features are terrible and should be taken out. Complaints are rarely useful, in my experience.
Many of the posts I’ve read on the subject boil down to “That’s terrible, don’t do that”.

But if somebody sees something as a problem they’re still going to try and fix it, telling them not to is just going to make them stop caring about your opinion.

I imagine alternate suggestions on how to solve a problem would be more useful and better received than destructive criticism.

I’ve seen this same statement a number of times, but I’ve never seen a descriprion of what it was about the previous incarnation of the game that is missing now. This makes it difficult to discuss.

I’m sort of curious about what ‘previous incarnations’ of the game had that is now missing, too.

What’s missing is probably a ‘void’ that’s now filled with other things that some players didn’t want to have to think about, is my best guess.

[Random_dragon]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:442, topic:12504”]Good job completely missing the point as usual.
Was I talking about “assorted complaints”? Was I talking about “(objections to) a given feature”? No I wasn’t, but I guess you don’t care since you have an axe to grind.[/quote]

I was bringing it up because I was hoping that you would give your thoughts on some of the points having been brought up on the thread. A lot of arguments occurred here, and a lot of points were raised. Some subjective, some objective. Some I agree with, some I don’t, etc.

In my case I was more joking about the fact that your first post on the thread was about someone’s vague ideas about what the game has become, and not about the points that have come up that are more narrow in scope, and are more worth addressing.

[Aluminumfoil]

Do all guns actually spawn with magazines installed, now? I haven’t played in forever.

[kevin.granade]

Do all guns actually spawn with magazines installed, now? I haven’t played in forever.

It’s not every gun ever, but yes they generally spawn with magazines.

[Random_dragon]

Do all guns actually spawn with magazines installed, now? I haven’t played in forever.

Ones in gun stores generally won’t have a magazine in them because they generally keep the mags out in gun stores, while in most other locations you’ll typically find them with at least a magazine inside, if not ammo as well.

[Aluminumfoil]

Cool. It might be worth trying out the experimentals again!

[Random_dragon]

Cool. It might be worth trying out the experimentals again!

Maybe. There are still a lot of problems with it, some of which I agree are problems, and some I disagree with.

• Jacking I’ve personally gotten used to, but I understand if someone thinks it’s pointless. There seriously oughta be some way to disable it though, and the lack of that probably exacerbated others decrying it as a bad idea.

• Filthy clothing is still there but more tolerable. But whoever thought that it’s a smart idea to have filthy clothes display as such even if the mod is disabled doesn’t have their head screwed on straight. If it has no effect, there’s no sane reason for it to show as such. I legit first assumed it was broken or that I forgot to disable the mod, so that’s a terrible idea.

• Nutrition system now apparently gives you debuffs and therefore works, but probably still unrealistically acute in effects since last I checked. This is bad because I don’t personally feel that it actually serves it’s intended game balance role (by the timer starvation is no longer a problem, you likely have a variety of food), and yet it doesn’t really behave realistically, thus failing at both its purposes.

• Bionic limits I never noticed because they were half-implemented when first added. They only take effect with a debug trait. I’d call this laziness but don’t really have any real objection to dealing with it one way or another.

• Vehicle faults exist and you’ll probably never notice them because there’s already so many things that can generate broken with any given vehicle. For me, it’s maybe 1% of the time that a vehicle fault actually makes a vehicle unusable, and the few times it DOES happen, it’s usually a part you can’t craft. So my opinion is, again, like with a lot of the controversial features, its contribution to game balance is non-existent.

[Coolthulhu]

But whoever thought that it’s a smart idea to have filthy clothes display as such even if the mod is disabled doesn’t have their head screwed on straight.

At first the “new filth” was mandatory. I moved it to a default mod, but forgot the display. Then the author of filthy mechanics followed up with a PR that would hide filth from display when the mod was disabled. Kevin vetoed that change…

In moments like this I ask “just why?” and it’s not always “why do that?” - often it’s “why do I bother? why am I still here?”.

[Random_dragon]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:450, topic:12504”]At first the “new filth” was mandatory. I moved it to a default mod, but forgot the display. Then the author of filthy mechanics followed up with a PR that would hide filth from display when the mod was disabled. Kevin vetoed that change…

In moments like this I ask “just why?” and it’s not always “why do that?” - often it’s “why do I bother? why am I still here?”.[/quote]

…wow. Dare I even ask WHY Kevin thought vetoing it was a good idea?

EDIT: On a related note, I am sorely tempted to sig that last line.

[kevin.granade]

When I’m wrong I’m wrong. Further thought and discussion made me change my mind, merged the PR that reversed the “highlight filthy clothing when its effects are disabled” thing.

I honestly thought that it was a pertinent fact worth highlighting whether the clothing was filthy, whether it had direct effects or not, but I can see that a lot of people take highlighted items as being a much bigger deal than I do.

[CK_Kirbi]

.> I swear to god… the three of you need to go drink and then get in a fist fight or something.

Glad to see that cooler heads and reason prevailed.

[TheWumpus]

Well, I had a well written and eloquent post almost completely typed up and then somehow I managed to fat finger it and erase the entire damned thing. Fuck.

Kevin, this is your baby. If you want to turn it into a super realistic hardcore survival sim set in the near future with light sci-fi elements nobody is going to be able to stop you. As it stands now this is a game where it’s possible to play as a psychopathic cannibal bearman, drive a tank into a refugee center, and eat the residents. And that’s pretty damned cool. It just feels like the push towards more realism in a game about a zombie apocalypse caused by a blob from another dimension is kind of silly.

[StopSignal]

Even if I’m always up to throw realism out the window for fun and satisfaction, realism handled correctly can be quite good and fun! It’s just that every “realism” thing you put in the game has to translate to a good, gamified mechanic that works with all other mechanics that have been already stablished, and that’s hard to do, even more in a community made game like this. But I’m positive it’ll be a perfect game one day! All the work it has already is amazing.

[Submarine]

I just start playing Cata again and I think the filthy close and vitamins add a lot of game play. Without those 2 newly added game mechanics the whole tailoring and cooking craft is nothing worth for a early / mid @.

Something else… I am no programmer what so ever but I was wondering if it would be possible to have vehicles have a template similar to how @ works. This to improve to simulate a vehicle when being stressed or driving in the wet or snow enz.

[Wasylus]

Just wanted to write this: I played cataclysmDDA about ~2 years ago, i returned to playing it a few weeks ago and i find most of the changes either good or “neutral”. The latter are things that don’t add much to the game but don’t detract from the experience or add tedium (i would count ammo magazines in this category).
I don’t quite understand all the hysterical reactions and posts about “ruining” the game ? What ?
My only major complaint about the direction in which Cataclysm DDA is going is the stability. From my experience during those ~2 years or so it became a lot less stable. Not to the point of being unplayable but to the point of being much more annoying. So if i were to write a rant it would be about stability and how it is getting worse as years of development pass by.

[SenorOcho]

Wasylus, a lot of specific things complained about in this thread were either fixed or rolled back well over a month ago.

I’m pretty much with TheWumpus on this stuff. The main draw of C:DDA for me is building ridiculous vehicles and mowing down zombies and otherworldly horrors with absurd jury rigged weapons. I’ve already got UnReal World for when I want to play a hardcore survival sim.

[TheFlame52]

Even if I’m always up to throw realism out the window for fun and satisfaction, realism handled correctly can be quite good and fun! It’s just that every “realism” thing you put in the game has to translate to a good, gamified mechanic that works with all other mechanics that have been already stablished, and that’s hard to do, even more in a community made game like this. But I’m positive it’ll be a perfect game one day! All the work it has already is amazing.

this

I’m pretty much with TheWumpus on this stuff. The main draw of C:DDA for me is building ridiculous vehicles and mowing down zombies and otherworldly horrors with absurd jury rigged weapons.

also this

[Random_dragon]

Even if I’m always up to throw realism out the window for fun and satisfaction, realism handled correctly can be quite good and fun! It’s just that every “realism” thing you put in the game has to translate to a good, gamified mechanic that works with all other mechanics that have been already stablished, and that’s hard to do, even more in a community made game like this. But I’m positive it’ll be a perfect game one day! All the work it has already is amazing.

A good elaboration of my opinion of realism-in-games I’d say.